How do you make Liches interesting?

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree. I'd use the lich "monster" stats as a template and work from there.

I do really wish that the Monster Builder would allow me to make NPCs by dropping in PC powers, use monster templates and monster themes. It really could be a fantastic app for making very detailed NPCs. But ho hum...

Well, MB does let you take a power from one monster and apply it to another monster. There are a VAST number of monster powers out there, probably emulating virtually every significant power PCs have, so you can do it. The trick is always finding the right power. Honestly unless I specifically know what monster has exactly what I want it is easier to just create them yourself.

 

[jbear]

I would use a standard lich, say the lvl 14 elite controller as a base from MV. From there you get an idea of the damage range more or less, hp and defenses on track etc. A lot of time saved.

Then I'd flick through creatures that might have powers that fit what i want to achieve.

As Zaran said, I'd make his movement Teleport. Real hard to pin down. But check out the nice twist the Tiefling Occultist (MV p263) gives to his Teleport Move Power: Teleport 10 then an attack vs Will to teleport someone 10 from the Lich to the square he just left. Recharge 5,6.

Now imagine how much fun that could be if you set up some interesting terrain that the Lich is unphased by. "The Lich in the midst of some aberrant living tree, surrounded and covered by thousands of long, whispy thin tentacles that glow neon purple. He blinks out of view and appears behind you. You feel his awful poetry tear at your mind! (Make Will attack) The world becomes paper thin, two dimensional and then folds in on you like a piece of paper. It unfolds almost as quickly and everything becomes solid again. You are now standing surrounded by whispy neon tentacles, embraced by the aberrant tree of stinging death where the Lich was only a blink of an eye ago ..." (Resolve effect for entering that area)

Minor Action: As the Lich chants his horrid poetry, the characters from the epic tragedy he reviles you with step out of the paintings lining the wall, wraith like shadows of their former self, trapped in a moment of eternal suffering. They immeadiately reach towards you with cold, jagged claws drawn by the warmth of your life blood. (5 minions summoned this way/round; They act immeadiately)

And then the Lich attacks ...

Hehehe ... pretty good start.

If you then design an awesome setting for the Lich to use to his advantage, with one or two 'star additions' to his powers, he should be pretty memorable, deadly, challenging and unique.

 

[webrunner]

Give the lich a hobby. Something engaging like painting or collecting swords or something, but not like.. stamp collecting or something nobody else would care about. And don't make him obssessed with it, to keep it interesting you dont want him talking the PC's ears off. Just something like, "Oh, that? Yeah I got that across the Purple Sea. It was once the ceremonial sword of an ancient group of dragon-worshippers. Oh, and that one? Crypt right next to mine. I know, right?"

So yeah, interesting, but not overwhelming.

 

[Kinneus]

Give the lich a hobby. Something engaging like painting or collecting swords or something, but not like.. stamp collecting or something nobody else would care about. And don't make him obssessed with it, to keep it interesting you dont want him talking the PC's ears off. Just something like, "Oh, that? Yeah I got that across the Purple Sea. It was once the ceremonial sword of an ancient group of dragon-worshippers. Oh, and that one? Crypt right next to mine. I know, right?"

So yeah, interesting, but not overwhelming.

I, personally, always wanted to make a lich swordmage. Although I guess that could interpreted as a death knight.

 

[Dausuul]

Okay, so here's a take on the lich as a 14th-level elite. It's a controller with themes of cold magic, illusion, and mind control. I suggest that it command a group of skeletal tomb guardians and perhaps a couple of vampires, or some homebrewed undead in the level 9-12 range:

LICH (Level 14 Elite Controller Leader)
Hp 210, Bloodied 105
AC 28, Fort 26, Ref 24, Will 29
Speed 6
Resist 10 necrotic, 10 cold, +2 saving throws; immune poison, disease; vulnerable 5 radiant
Action Points: 1

TRAITS
Deathly Chill: Necrotic, cold. Aura 3. Any creature that enters the aura or starts its turn there takes 10 necrotic and cold damage.
Chessmaster: Aura 20. At the start of the lich's turn, it can slide all undead allies within the aura up to 2 squares.

STANDARD ACTIONS
Deathly Grasp (Basic, At-Will): Necrotic, cold. Melee 1, +18 vs. AC. 3d8+10 necrotic and cold damage.
Icy Blast (At-Will): Cold. Ranged 20, +18 vs. Fortitude. 3d8+20 cold damage and push the target up to 3 squares.
Searing Hatred (Encounter): Psychic. Ranged 20, +18 vs. Will. Choose one of the target's allies. At the end of the target's next turn, if it did not use a standard action to attack the chosen ally, the target takes 30 psychic damage. The lich can repeat the attack as a minor action to sustain the effect. The effect ends if the target or the ally is reduced to 0 hit points.
Wall of Ice (Encounter): Cold. Wall of up to 8 contiguous squares within 10, +18 vs. Reflex. 2d8+10 cold damage and the target is restrained (save ends). Effect: Affected squares are filled with a barrier of ice 20 feet high that counts as blocking terrain until destroyed. The wall as a whole has 50 hit points, immunity to cold, and vulnerability 5 fire.

MOVE ACTIONS
Dark Resurgence (Encounter): Teleportation. All slain non-minion allies (including undead) within 20 squares are revived. They are now considered undead and minions; they have 1 hit point each, are immune to poison and disease, have resist 10 necrotic, and take no damage from missed attacks. The lich then teleports up to 20 squares.

MINOR ACTIONS
Crushing Terror (Encounter): Fear, psychic. Close burst 5, +18 vs. Will. Until the end of the lich's next turn, the target takes 20 psychic damage the first time it attacks the lich or moves closer to it.
Spectral Harbinger (Daily): Illusion. Ranged unlimited, line of effect not required. An illusion of a Medium-sized humanoid creature appears in a square of the lich's choice and lasts until the end of the lich's next turn. It has defenses equal to the lich's, but any attack which hits the harbinger destroys it. The lich can see through the harbinger's eyes and can sustain it as a minor action.

TACTICS
The lich uses Searing Hatred to make a melee enemy attack a weaker ally, then holds its foes at bay with Icy Blast, Wall of Ice, and Crushing Terror. When its allies have been destroyed, it uses Dark Resurgence to revive them and reposition itself. Spectral Harbinger is used to harass enemies from afar, or to cover the lich's retreat if the battle turns against it.

 

[Krellic]

What is a lich but a magical marrionette of bones, controlled by powerful magic and the soul hiding away in the phylactery?

I saw this remark and I immediately thought of an environment with a lot of scattered and maybe strategically places skeletons that the lich can transfer his essence into as a 'whatever action seems appropriate'. It might even be able to do it as an immediate action any time it is dazed etc.

I have visions of a party desperately running around trying to destroy all the skeletons it can find in a dungeon complex...

 

[Plane Sailing]

A well designed solo shouldn't need to have infinite powers to show a high degree of interesting stuff. It should have enough for the 3-4 rounds that it will last in combat (ideally) to be more than interesting

3-4 rounds seems a little low for a solo, surely? My 4e experience (heroic and paragon levels) always had solos lasting for 10+ rounds.

 

[Aegeri]

3-4 rounds seems a little low for a solo, surely? My 4e experience (heroic and paragon levels) always had solos lasting for 10+ rounds.

Um, that's not really that normal. A solid solo fight should be 3-5 rounds. I am quite curious now though, could you describe some of these battles and what the creature was (and what the party composition was)?

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm afraid its too long ago for details. In heroic tier there were fights against dragons - a black dragon fight at 3rd level which went on for about 30 rounds. A green dragon fight against a 5th level party (ftr, warlock, wizard, rogue, cleric) which lasted about 12 rounds. In paragon tier there was a 13th level party against a dracolich (wiz, ftr, warlord, rogue) which went on for at least 9 rounds by the end of the night, and neither the dragon nor the party were bloodied at that time.

It's a matter of hitting with key attacks or otherwise, and relatively low damage compared to the solo hit points.

I know that MMIII+ has done a lot to improve these matters, but... I still would be astonished if a solo went down in 3-4 rounds. Wasn't one of the ideas of 4e to reduce the combats which were over in less than 30 seconds of game time?

Cheers

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, I think the idea was to make it so that boss monsters weren't just nuked by the party alpha-strike in round one or negated by some rather involved lawerly spell-casting combos, yes. OTOH if you're playing in a group which is fairly optimized and was pushing some of the more unbalanced options like lock-down specialists and super crit-fishing dual dagger wielding ranger builds then yeah, you could pretty much trash Orcus in a couple rounds. So one might say PHB1/MM1 vintage 4e (at high paragon and above anyway) sort of failed with that aim.

Some of the worst offending stuff has been subsequently nerfed, MM3 (and to an extent MM2) solos have been designed quite a bit better. At this point yeah, epic solos might last 5 rounds against a group of expert players.

OTOH at lower levels I think you're much more likely to run into the longer and more drawn out fights. Less so now than before because low level PCs are a bit stronger and low level solos have dropped a hefty chunk in the defenses department. They also put out more damage and like other lower level monsters you don't have to drastically overlevel them anymore to make them threatening.

So you can both be correct, just at different points in the game. I think you'd find today that a low level solo will usually last something like 8 rounds, maybe less, maybe more. Still depends somewhat on the party level of optimization.

Personally I think this is one of the reasons you do see limited numbers of epic monsters. A level 5 party is not going to vary all that much. You can drop a fairly stock heroic tier solo on them and the variation won't be all that bad unless you have really extreme groups on either end (and really it is more tactics than skill with build options at low levels). At level 25 OTOH you're going to see a MUCH larger variation. A striker built by a player with no particular concern for optimization might be doing 100 points of damage on an attack routine that the highly optimized player is doing 250 or 300 points on, not to mention stacking on multiple other effects. It is a LOT harder to simply design a solo for that level group and have it come out useful to all tables OOTB. I suspect this is one of the issues with epic monster support. It takes a lot of time and energy to do it well.