WampusCat43
Explorer
Well put. This is an excellent thread. I've had mixed success with these things so far, and it's good to see other people's slant on it.
"Can you convince the merchant to give you a discount?" is not.
I really dislike the skill challenge mechanic in general, but one thing that I've noticed even more than usual disappointment with is high complexity diplomatic challenges. 12 successes required, we get to like 6, and we're starting to rehash a bunch of stuff we've already said. At some point, the players and judge are exasperated and the judge will just cut to the chase with something like, "Look, you need 6 more successes, just roll a bunch of diplomacy checks already." Help?
I think you misunderstand what railroading is. Railroading is when you tell the PCs that they are in a negotiation and they say "Hello, we would like the prisoners released..." and you say, "No, that's never going to happen" and they say "I'd like to use a Diplomacy check to convince him" and you say "No, no matter what you do, it won't convince them. You are thrown in a cell by some big burly guys who easily defeat you and you are unable to escape for a week."
I really dislike the skill challenge mechanic in general, but one thing that I've noticed even more than usual disappointment with is high complexity diplomatic challenges. 12 successes required, we get to like 6, and we're starting to rehash a bunch of stuff we've already said. At some point, the players and judge are exasperated and the judge will just cut to the chase with something like, "Look, you need 6 more successes, just roll a bunch of diplomacy checks already." Help?
The entire point of a Skill Challenge is to provide the PCs with a branching path so that it DOESN'T railroad them. If the Skill Challenge succeeds then X happens. If it fails, then Y happens. And I as a DM don't know which path the story will take until after the dice have their say. That's the exact opposite of railroading.
I've found that Skill Challenges that are set too complex are the ones that stick out as kind of boring. If you have to make 10 successes to fix someone's house, then you might be wondering what the heck is going on about the 4th time you've made an Athletics check to carry wood. The finding stolen goods Skill Challenge is designed to be long and feels natural when it takes a while to move from skill check to skill check.
You put forth a lot of good strategies for adapting Wizards' RAW and making Skill Challenges work. But this point, and many of the others you make, are direct contradictions to the RAW. The RAW is clear that Skill Challenges are not meant to be failed. The RAW actually use climbing a wall as an explicit example of the Skill Challenge mechanic. Etcetera. I am 100% in agreement with you on your points, but what you are positing is just about as radical a departure from the RAW as I recommended in my post.
Skill challenges are exactly that - challenges. A challenge can be passed or failed, with consequences for each. IIRC, the DMG mentions that failing a skill challenge shouldn't mean the PC's are stuck - it means that they face an additional penalty before achieving their goal.
...i'm still designing the challenge now. And also what will failures mean. Since an investigation is a long-winded event, i can't have them pay up healing surges for failures. Perhaps they'll be greated by more enemies for each failure they get (enemies learning that the PCs are trying to solve the issue), i'm not sure yet.