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How do you present your Skill Challenges
- Thread starter RavenSinger
- Start date
vagabundo
Adventurer
High complexity skill challenges, to me, seem like Solo Monster combats. They can drag unless the DM makes it dynamic. After every "round" of player input something should change, the challenge should be fine grained, then the players reassess the situation and, even though it could involve the same skill use, it will feel different as the story/narrative has progressed.
I think there is a fine art to including them in the game seamlessly, but they definitely add something to the standard DM fiat, from a DMs point of view I feel more satisfied with the success or failure. I'm still getting to grips with them TBH.
I think there is a fine art to including them in the game seamlessly, but they definitely add something to the standard DM fiat, from a DMs point of view I feel more satisfied with the success or failure. I'm still getting to grips with them TBH.
Radiating Gnome
Adventurer
I'm using a lot of variations on the basic skill challenge idea, and I like feeling like I can be very flexible about how to run them -- the core mechanic is a starting place, a frame on which I can imagine each new challenge.
At the same time, I respectfully disagree in many (not all) cases with the idea that allowing the players to see the scaffolding of the skill challenge structure is a bad thing -- but in the end I think that there's a wide variety of groups that play, and a wide variety of tastes, and ultimately there isn't a "right" way to handle that.
For me, I don't see the point to having such a structured system if that structure isn't going to be made accessible to the players in some way. If you're going to hide it from the players, why use the structure in the first place? On that path, the only thing that has been created is a formalized structure for the sort of thing a DM would be doing by imagination and the seat of his pants in previous additions.
At the same time, showing the structure to the players does draw attention to the game elements at the expense of the role playing elements. I'm willing to make that sacrifice for the advantages I feel I get out of bringing game elements into those moments at the table -- but clearly that doesn't work for everyone. It also doesn't honestly work in all situations.
I see three different broad categories in my own game . . . . social, action, and investigative challenges.
For social challenges, unless I'm playing with new players, I'll frequently not make obvious the structure of the skill challenge system. I may use some of my tools for indicating successes (I throw poker chips on the table, green ones for successes, red ones for failures) as we talk and I ask them to make skill checks. I do, however, try to take a moment in the flow of conversation between me and the talkative players to ask what the other players are going to do while this is going on -- to try to give everyone a chance to get involved in the challenge one way or the other -- without forcing the issue. But, I show the least structure in a RP challenge because those are challenges that seem to work best that way -- it was a part of the game that we already did pretty well before this edition. I also really like the idea of using degrees of success in social encounters rather than just having a succeed/fail result.
For Action encounters, I tend to show the structure much more -- whether it's finding their way through the wilderness, trying to help a town fight a fire, trying to chase down a ship at sea, or any other variation on these sorts of challenges, the action challenges fit much better into my game with strong structure and game element. These types of encounters, IMO, make a much better parallel to combat encounters, and I like being able to give them the same sort of structure as a combat encounter. At the same time, I don't think that's the right choice for ALL of these encounters. I'll usually start an action encounter by explaining that the PCs are going into a skill challenge, what the primary skills are, and an encouragement to try other skills if they can figure out clever ideas. What this does is help me flesh out the details of the scene with the players, and help them see the ways they can interact with the world.
For Investigative Challenges, I ask myself a question -- can the game go on if the PCs fail the challenge. If the PCs can fail the challenge and the game still goes on, I'll run a skill challenge for them. But if they really can't reasonably fail the challenge and continue on the path they're on, I don't use the skill challenge rules. I have been using something similar, where I have a bunch of information the PC can gather with successful skill checks in a variety of areas, but I don't bother tracking failures -- they're going to keep making checks until they get bored with the investigation or until I run out of information to give them. I could just dump the information out for them, but by making them make skill checks to earn the information, and giving each player a nugget of information that they've earned with that check, I keep them engaged in gathering that information and with the story (my players tend to grow inattentive if they're not swinging swords).
So, YMMV, but for me I think it doesn't make a lot of sense to make blanket statements about skill challenges -- how best to run them. I think it depends in large part upon the specific challenge in question and the group you play with.
-j
At the same time, I respectfully disagree in many (not all) cases with the idea that allowing the players to see the scaffolding of the skill challenge structure is a bad thing -- but in the end I think that there's a wide variety of groups that play, and a wide variety of tastes, and ultimately there isn't a "right" way to handle that.
For me, I don't see the point to having such a structured system if that structure isn't going to be made accessible to the players in some way. If you're going to hide it from the players, why use the structure in the first place? On that path, the only thing that has been created is a formalized structure for the sort of thing a DM would be doing by imagination and the seat of his pants in previous additions.
At the same time, showing the structure to the players does draw attention to the game elements at the expense of the role playing elements. I'm willing to make that sacrifice for the advantages I feel I get out of bringing game elements into those moments at the table -- but clearly that doesn't work for everyone. It also doesn't honestly work in all situations.
I see three different broad categories in my own game . . . . social, action, and investigative challenges.
For social challenges, unless I'm playing with new players, I'll frequently not make obvious the structure of the skill challenge system. I may use some of my tools for indicating successes (I throw poker chips on the table, green ones for successes, red ones for failures) as we talk and I ask them to make skill checks. I do, however, try to take a moment in the flow of conversation between me and the talkative players to ask what the other players are going to do while this is going on -- to try to give everyone a chance to get involved in the challenge one way or the other -- without forcing the issue. But, I show the least structure in a RP challenge because those are challenges that seem to work best that way -- it was a part of the game that we already did pretty well before this edition. I also really like the idea of using degrees of success in social encounters rather than just having a succeed/fail result.
For Action encounters, I tend to show the structure much more -- whether it's finding their way through the wilderness, trying to help a town fight a fire, trying to chase down a ship at sea, or any other variation on these sorts of challenges, the action challenges fit much better into my game with strong structure and game element. These types of encounters, IMO, make a much better parallel to combat encounters, and I like being able to give them the same sort of structure as a combat encounter. At the same time, I don't think that's the right choice for ALL of these encounters. I'll usually start an action encounter by explaining that the PCs are going into a skill challenge, what the primary skills are, and an encouragement to try other skills if they can figure out clever ideas. What this does is help me flesh out the details of the scene with the players, and help them see the ways they can interact with the world.
For Investigative Challenges, I ask myself a question -- can the game go on if the PCs fail the challenge. If the PCs can fail the challenge and the game still goes on, I'll run a skill challenge for them. But if they really can't reasonably fail the challenge and continue on the path they're on, I don't use the skill challenge rules. I have been using something similar, where I have a bunch of information the PC can gather with successful skill checks in a variety of areas, but I don't bother tracking failures -- they're going to keep making checks until they get bored with the investigation or until I run out of information to give them. I could just dump the information out for them, but by making them make skill checks to earn the information, and giving each player a nugget of information that they've earned with that check, I keep them engaged in gathering that information and with the story (my players tend to grow inattentive if they're not swinging swords).
So, YMMV, but for me I think it doesn't make a lot of sense to make blanket statements about skill challenges -- how best to run them. I think it depends in large part upon the specific challenge in question and the group you play with.
-j
WampusCat43
Explorer
Yours is the only blog I subscribe to so far, and it's because of this insightful analysis. Thanks, RG.
I like them, I think my players like them, but so far they've not really worked as well as I'd like. I think that is due partially to my prep level.
For instance, I wanted to have them track through the wilderness to hunt boar, but just ended up with the ranger rolling against his skills because no one else really had any that were useful.
The drinking game ended up being partially successful (they were challenged by various lizardmen to contests).
The interaction with a group of NPCs that were trying to bully them was better.
The interatctions with their commander (they are in the army) were good, but not great.
I think I need to read all of your ideas in more detail.
For instance, I wanted to have them track through the wilderness to hunt boar, but just ended up with the ranger rolling against his skills because no one else really had any that were useful.
The drinking game ended up being partially successful (they were challenged by various lizardmen to contests).
The interaction with a group of NPCs that were trying to bully them was better.
The interatctions with their commander (they are in the army) were good, but not great.
I think I need to read all of your ideas in more detail.
Iron Sky
Procedurally Generated
I've only used 1 Skill Challenge, and it was kinda impromptu. I also use Stalker0's Obsidian Skill Challenge system, since it rocks.
The previous day, the PCs killed an assassin that had killed three travellers in the inn they had stopped to have dinner in. A few of the assassin's friends found them and told the PCs to meet them just out of sight of the city's south gate. As they left, one PC rolled an insight and figured the three enemies couldn't be trusted to come alone.
Here's how it went(from my Fantasy Grounds 2 chatlog) - Be forewarned, this is kinda long - the "more detail" that was requested. If I knew how to do the hidden spoiler boxes I'd do that, but I've never figured out how
***
GM: Summary: The Red Crescent Soldiers made sexist, racist, and generally nasty comments to Rafel, Suri, and Thoth at the House of Pleas.
GM: They then asked them to come "South of the city, just out of sight of the city walls" in one hour
GM: That was 30 minutes ago
GM: The group has generally decided they are going to head to the spot to meet the Red Crescents. You all have thirty minutes to prepare.
GM: You don't have to have your actions stay with the group or even in one location.
GM: You can pretty much go anywhere in the city
GM: Round 1
Rafel Fernando Eladio starts a gondorian style inspirational speech, gathering these people together to rise up at this chance and help defeat some vile Reds and get revenge!
Rafel Fernando Eladio -> Skill [Diplomacy] [19] [1d20+6 = 19]
Suri Canaa begins talking to the various guards about the tactics that the Crescents have used in the past. trying to figure out if there is a pattern to their tactics.
Suri Canaa -> Skill [History] [25] [1d20+8 = 25]
Muhanai Manaq'anri pulls out a book of black hide and starts flipping through the pages
[w] Muhanai Manaq'anri: looking for wizard tactics in the desert abroad
[w] Muhanai Manaq'anri: Stories of the past people in the area of what the wizards used in combat
Muhanai Manaq'anri -> Skill [History] [23] [1d20+11 = 23]
Thoth considers what the Red Crescent's ultimate motivation might be...
Thoth -> Skill [Insight] [12] [1d20-1 = 12]
GM: Several caravaners rise up and cheer at Rafel's speech. Various guards tell Suri that the crescents use four main types of soldiers: knights, spearmen, swordsmen, and archers. Muhanai lets everyone know that he has a book on desert survival and warfare that might have something useful in it.
GM: Thoth sits quietly.
GM: Round 2, you have about 25 minutes until the fight.
GM: Keep in mind, you can go anywhere in the city and do anything you can think of and justify.
Muhanai Manaq'anri Leaves the tavern and goes back to the marketplace looking for a bookshop or reagent vendor
[w] Muhanai Manaq'anri: Looking for more information on the red crescents
Muhanai Manaq'anri -> Skill [Streetwise] [3] [1d20+1 = 3]
Thoth will turn to his companions and explain in a roundabout way that if they are to become embroiled in an upcoming battle, they must be prepared. Thoth will try and gain his companions confidence that he will support them, whatever their choice may be.
Thoth -> Skill [Diplomacy] [27] [1d20+8 = 27]
Rafel Fernando Eladio gathers up a group if individuals who seem interested and heads out to the dunes early, to scout and set up before the Reds get there. Wishing the rest of his companions good luck.
Rafel Fernando Eladio -> Skill [Nature] [27] [1d20+8 = 27]
Suri Canaa leaves the tavern and travels to a spot just inside the gates where other desertwalkers congregate. When she arrives she begins to use her connection to the elements to gather a crowd of her people by mafesting elemental powers.
Skill [Arcana] [19] [1d20+8 = 19]
GM: Rafel gathers together a ragged but enthusiastic group of caravaners and even a few Cairnites. Thoth encourages everyone, bostering Rafel's group's courage and encouraging everyone else whenever they head out or return.
GM: Suri heads outside the city and creates a whirlwind of sand that crackles with static lightning, drawing group of nomads. Muhanai returns after 10 minutes with a flask of wine, a big bag of pastries, and a book on Cairnite Carpet Weaving and slaps his forhead, "doh!"
GM: Round 3: Things seem to be going your way. You already are fairly prepared for the fight. If you wish in the final round, you may gamble with a -5 to your check. Success gives 2 successes instead of one. You have about 15 minutes until the fight.
GM: Oh, also a note that I should have mentioned earlier, you can spend an action point to reroll a failed roll
Thoth Thoth makes his way to the location of the battle, looking to Gibbeth for guidance!
Thoth -> Skill [Arcana] [9] [1d20+6 = 9]
Muhanai Manaq'anri walks towards the southern city gate eating pastries and drinking spiced wine while looking through a book
[w] Muhanai Manaq'anri: casting tensers floating disc outside the city gates
[w] Muhanai Manaq'anri: Once on the disc I can float around and spy on the red crescent group coming to meet with us
Skill [Arcana] [23] [1d20+11 = 23]
Rafel Fernando Eladio establishes a prime spot for ambush. Once there he talks amongst the followers of what he has remember hearing and reading about how they have attacked, their locations, tactics, and then comes up with a plan of attack.
Rafel Fernando Eladio -> Skill [History] [16] [1d20+6 = 16]
Rafel Fernando Eladio: rerolling and AP down
Rafel Fernando Eladio -> Skill [History] [25] [1d20+6 = 25]
Suri Canaa begins speaking to the gathering crowd, speaking about the will of the wanderer and the freedom of the people of the sands. Then she tries to persuade her listeners that it is their duty to the wanderer and the other desertwalkers to fight against the injustice of the red crescents.
[w] Suri Canaa: gamble, willing to spend an action point on a failure
Suri Canaa -> Skill [Religion] (-5) [16] [1d20+3 = 16]
[w] -> Suri Canaa: Then reroll, 'cause you failed by 2
Suri Canaa -> Skill [Religion] [15] [1d20+8 = 15]
Note: At this point the group has 8 successes out of the 7 they need for a success with 4 players.
GM: Rafel finds what he thinks is the spot and hides himself and his followers. Suri extoles the others to follow her. They seem dubious about facing the Red Crescents, but eventually a couple agree to come with.
GM: Muhanai comes zipping back to the group on a disc of force and lets everyone know that he spotted the enemy approaching; exactly to where Rafel and the others are hidden out by a large sand dune. Thoth stares blankly at the empty sands, his calls to whatever his "Gibbeth" is seemingly unanswered.
GM: Skill challenge success!
We then jumped into the battle, the group bolstered by 8 minions vs the three Red Crescents they had met before plus four others.
The previous day, the PCs killed an assassin that had killed three travellers in the inn they had stopped to have dinner in. A few of the assassin's friends found them and told the PCs to meet them just out of sight of the city's south gate. As they left, one PC rolled an insight and figured the three enemies couldn't be trusted to come alone.
Here's how it went(from my Fantasy Grounds 2 chatlog) - Be forewarned, this is kinda long - the "more detail" that was requested. If I knew how to do the hidden spoiler boxes I'd do that, but I've never figured out how
***
GM: Summary: The Red Crescent Soldiers made sexist, racist, and generally nasty comments to Rafel, Suri, and Thoth at the House of Pleas.
GM: They then asked them to come "South of the city, just out of sight of the city walls" in one hour
GM: That was 30 minutes ago
GM: The group has generally decided they are going to head to the spot to meet the Red Crescents. You all have thirty minutes to prepare.
GM: You don't have to have your actions stay with the group or even in one location.
GM: You can pretty much go anywhere in the city
GM: Round 1
Rafel Fernando Eladio starts a gondorian style inspirational speech, gathering these people together to rise up at this chance and help defeat some vile Reds and get revenge!
Rafel Fernando Eladio -> Skill [Diplomacy] [19] [1d20+6 = 19]
Suri Canaa begins talking to the various guards about the tactics that the Crescents have used in the past. trying to figure out if there is a pattern to their tactics.
Suri Canaa -> Skill [History] [25] [1d20+8 = 25]
Muhanai Manaq'anri pulls out a book of black hide and starts flipping through the pages
[w] Muhanai Manaq'anri: looking for wizard tactics in the desert abroad
[w] Muhanai Manaq'anri: Stories of the past people in the area of what the wizards used in combat
Muhanai Manaq'anri -> Skill [History] [23] [1d20+11 = 23]
Thoth considers what the Red Crescent's ultimate motivation might be...
Thoth -> Skill [Insight] [12] [1d20-1 = 12]
GM: Several caravaners rise up and cheer at Rafel's speech. Various guards tell Suri that the crescents use four main types of soldiers: knights, spearmen, swordsmen, and archers. Muhanai lets everyone know that he has a book on desert survival and warfare that might have something useful in it.
GM: Thoth sits quietly.
GM: Round 2, you have about 25 minutes until the fight.
GM: Keep in mind, you can go anywhere in the city and do anything you can think of and justify.
Muhanai Manaq'anri Leaves the tavern and goes back to the marketplace looking for a bookshop or reagent vendor
[w] Muhanai Manaq'anri: Looking for more information on the red crescents
Muhanai Manaq'anri -> Skill [Streetwise] [3] [1d20+1 = 3]
Thoth will turn to his companions and explain in a roundabout way that if they are to become embroiled in an upcoming battle, they must be prepared. Thoth will try and gain his companions confidence that he will support them, whatever their choice may be.
Thoth -> Skill [Diplomacy] [27] [1d20+8 = 27]
Rafel Fernando Eladio gathers up a group if individuals who seem interested and heads out to the dunes early, to scout and set up before the Reds get there. Wishing the rest of his companions good luck.
Rafel Fernando Eladio -> Skill [Nature] [27] [1d20+8 = 27]
Suri Canaa leaves the tavern and travels to a spot just inside the gates where other desertwalkers congregate. When she arrives she begins to use her connection to the elements to gather a crowd of her people by mafesting elemental powers.
Skill [Arcana] [19] [1d20+8 = 19]
GM: Rafel gathers together a ragged but enthusiastic group of caravaners and even a few Cairnites. Thoth encourages everyone, bostering Rafel's group's courage and encouraging everyone else whenever they head out or return.
GM: Suri heads outside the city and creates a whirlwind of sand that crackles with static lightning, drawing group of nomads. Muhanai returns after 10 minutes with a flask of wine, a big bag of pastries, and a book on Cairnite Carpet Weaving and slaps his forhead, "doh!"
GM: Round 3: Things seem to be going your way. You already are fairly prepared for the fight. If you wish in the final round, you may gamble with a -5 to your check. Success gives 2 successes instead of one. You have about 15 minutes until the fight.
GM: Oh, also a note that I should have mentioned earlier, you can spend an action point to reroll a failed roll
Thoth Thoth makes his way to the location of the battle, looking to Gibbeth for guidance!
Thoth -> Skill [Arcana] [9] [1d20+6 = 9]
Muhanai Manaq'anri walks towards the southern city gate eating pastries and drinking spiced wine while looking through a book
[w] Muhanai Manaq'anri: casting tensers floating disc outside the city gates
[w] Muhanai Manaq'anri: Once on the disc I can float around and spy on the red crescent group coming to meet with us
Skill [Arcana] [23] [1d20+11 = 23]
Rafel Fernando Eladio establishes a prime spot for ambush. Once there he talks amongst the followers of what he has remember hearing and reading about how they have attacked, their locations, tactics, and then comes up with a plan of attack.
Rafel Fernando Eladio -> Skill [History] [16] [1d20+6 = 16]
Rafel Fernando Eladio: rerolling and AP down
Rafel Fernando Eladio -> Skill [History] [25] [1d20+6 = 25]
Suri Canaa begins speaking to the gathering crowd, speaking about the will of the wanderer and the freedom of the people of the sands. Then she tries to persuade her listeners that it is their duty to the wanderer and the other desertwalkers to fight against the injustice of the red crescents.
[w] Suri Canaa: gamble, willing to spend an action point on a failure
Suri Canaa -> Skill [Religion] (-5) [16] [1d20+3 = 16]
[w] -> Suri Canaa: Then reroll, 'cause you failed by 2
Suri Canaa -> Skill [Religion] [15] [1d20+8 = 15]
Note: At this point the group has 8 successes out of the 7 they need for a success with 4 players.
GM: Rafel finds what he thinks is the spot and hides himself and his followers. Suri extoles the others to follow her. They seem dubious about facing the Red Crescents, but eventually a couple agree to come with.
GM: Muhanai comes zipping back to the group on a disc of force and lets everyone know that he spotted the enemy approaching; exactly to where Rafel and the others are hidden out by a large sand dune. Thoth stares blankly at the empty sands, his calls to whatever his "Gibbeth" is seemingly unanswered.
GM: Skill challenge success!
We then jumped into the battle, the group bolstered by 8 minions vs the three Red Crescents they had met before plus four others.
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