How do you use summoned creatures?

[Zad]

Astral constructs:

I've got a psion that's very into the whole construct thing. And I'm only just getting a taste, but my sense so far is that constructs are what maybe Summon Monster was supposed to be like.

Constructs are great because you can tailor them to the situation with the menus of powers. Also, the psion has total mental control over the construct, which gives you a heck of a lot more utility from them. Then add in some of the feats and such published on the WoTC site, and you can augment the constructs even further.

Since they're not real and have no intelligence of their own, they're perfectly willing to do suicidal things if so directed.


We'll see how it plays out in the long run, but so far I've been pleased with the way constructs have worked out. Much nicer than the summon monster line.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Astral constructs: benefits no languae barrier.

Versatility & power goes to the summoned mosnters hands down.

People will tell you they can tialor the astral constructs. Basically whoopedy do, you can gve them some minor abilites all of which are easily found on the SM lists at virtually every level you could find them on the AC lists. Then SMs can cast hosts of spells, tunnel, teleport, and a wide range of other things. Combat SM are slightly better I feel on average, some specific situations pan out in the ACs favor for being a cosntruct, like no crits, avoids certain spells, can't be stopped by proteciton form evil. But the lack of a con bonus really hurts in the HPs, and so sure they are more protected vs certain exotic attacks, but they just get beat down much quicker and easier in a straight fight than a combat roeinted SM will. Also the celestial/fiendish templates aren't weak, they provide some defense against common elemental attacks, and DR.

AC I think get a slight edge if you use the minds eye thing on the wizards sight, some of the new feats really help out, and the prestige class is cool.

 

[Kershek]

So what if you make their durations equal 3 rounds + 1 round/level? They'll still last for only one combat in most cases, and the added power at higher levels is negligible -- but at lower levels, they become much more useful.

Daniel

Or what about 1 round/level + concentration? For a 5th level wizard, he can summon monster III and it will be around for 5 rounds. After that, he'd have to continue concentrating to keep it in the material plane. Good for non-combat and not worth doing while in combat.

 

[Wippit Guud]

What about making it like phantom steed? 10 minute cast time, sticks around for 1 hr/lvl.

Low levels cast it before going into a dungeon, even at 1st level it's around for 50 minutes, or until it dies.

 

[Zad]

The stuff on the WotC site really adds a lot to astral constructs. There's a feat that will change the duration from rounds/level to minutes/level.

You could make a similar feat for summon monsters.

 

[Dingleberry]

The cleric and druid in the party I DM have taken to summoning water elementals to clean up after the sorcerer, who has an itchy fireball trigger finger.

 

[Hannibal Barca]

Bump.

 

[WizarDru]

Astral constructs: benefits no languae barrier.

Versatility & power goes to the summoned mosnters hands down.

People will tell you they can tialor the astral constructs. Basically whoopedy do, you can gve them some minor abilites all of which are easily found on the SM lists at virtually every level you could find them on the AC lists. Then SMs can cast hosts of spells, tunnel, teleport, and a wide range of other things. Combat SM are slightly better I feel on average, some specific situations pan out in the ACs favor for being a cosntruct, like no crits, avoids certain spells, can't be stopped by proteciton form evil. But the lack of a con bonus really hurts in the HPs, and so sure they are more protected vs certain exotic attacks, but they just get beat down much quicker and easier in a straight fight than a combat roeinted SM will. Also the celestial/fiendish templates aren't weak, they provide some defense against common elemental attacks, and DR.

Not to doubt you, but my experience has been different. Have you actually played with both in practice?

Summon Monster I will get you a Celestial Dog. AC15, 6 hp, Smite for +1, SR 2 and Acid/cold/elec resistance 5. A fiendish hawk has AC17, 4 hp, Claws at +5 for 1d4-2, Smite for +1, cold/fire resistance 5 and SR2.

An Astral Construct I has AC14, 5 hp, 1d4+1 slam at +2, and has all the benefits of being a construct (i.e. spell immunities, not subject to criticals, etc.). It then gets a benefit of one power from the A list, which can include a second attack (giving it two attacks at +0 for 1d4+1), flight at 60' (which matches the hawk) or a choice of one resistance at 5.

I see no clear winner in that comparison. Both 1st level versions are relatively weak, but they each have a specific strength or weakness. However, the fiendish hawk might not be available, if the summoner is a cleric or a honorable arcane caster...the spell has the evil qualifier when used to summon an evil creature. The Astral Construct suffers no such restriction.

Let's look at Summon V, then. Here, the summon spells get one clear advantage; a choice of numbers over power. I've never really seen this as that big of an advantage (is summoning 1d3 lantern archons as good as summoning a single hound archon, for example), but it's worth mentioning.

Some creatures seem out of synch with others on the list. How often would anyone summon a Yeth Hound, for example, and is it really on the same level as a Fiendish Girallon? Further, why are there only six Good choices out of a total of 25? A good cleric would presumably only have 10 choices, then. Some choices are of extremely limited use, such as a Celestial Orca (anyone out there actually ever summoned one? Anyone? Anyone?). Some are just plain weak,

Let's compare a fiendish Girallon (shudder), an arrowhawk, a Celestial Bear and an Astral Construct 5.

Ast. Const. V: Large, AC 17, +2 Init, +13 Slam for 1d8+13, Spd 50', (7d10) 38 hp, Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +4 , 10' reach, DR 5/+1, and 2 menu B options (or 4 menu A, or 1B and 2A). So he could get +3d10 hp, +4 Deflection, add +HD to one attack, Improved Grab, Squeeze (for 2d4+Str Mod) and still has access to older goodies, like fly, sprint (10x normal speed!), swim or gain resistances. Very flexible. Remember it still has all those nifty construct resistances, too.

Fiendish Girallon: Large, AC 16, +3 Init, +12 melee (x4) for 1d4+8 or bite at +7 for 1d8+4, (7d10) 52 hp, Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3, 10' reach, has Scent and Rend (yikes!), speed 40'/climb 40', has SR 14, cold/fire 10, Darkvision 60', DR 5/+1 and smite Good for +7 1/day.

Arrowhawk, Medium: Medium size outsider (Air), AC 21, +5 Init, +12 Electric Ray to 45' at 2d8 or +12 bite at 1d8+2, (7d8) 38 hp, Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +6, 5' reach, has Fire/Cold Resist 20, Immunity to Acid, Electricity and Poison, speed 60' fly.

Celestial Brown Bear: Large, AC 15, +1 Init, +11 claw for 1d8+8 and +6 bite for 2d8+4, (6d8) 51 hp, Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3, 5' reach (!), has Improved Grab and Scent, speed 40', has SR 12, cold/acid/elec resistance 10, DR 5/+1, Smite Evil for +6, and Darkvision 60'.

Again, I see no clear winner, here. The girallon is a damage machine, to be sure, but it's really ONLY a damage machine. The Celestial bear, too, has some nice gimmicks, but is even less efficient as a combat beastie. Put a target in the air or water, and they're effectively sitting around doing nothing. The arrowhawk is great against flying magic users (or at least defending against them), but an equivalent-level fighter who can reach it can gut it like a fish in one round. The astral construct can effectively emulate all of the creatures to some degree by proper application of it's abilites, although not always to the same degree. This, to me, shows balance. The spell is not invalidated by the psionic power, and vice-versa. Power is sacrificed for utility or the reverse. An Astral Construct can be tailored to it's situation, while a summoner has to pick and choose, and hope he has the right beastie for the right situation.

This doesn't even factor the caster's abilities into the argument, which applies to both spellcaster and psion, and is a whole 'nother discussion.

 

[Storm Raven]

How does any spell that affects only enemies (or allies) tell the difference? It's magic. The fact is that you need to speak the creature's language in order to get it to perform non-combat tasks.

In one of Monte Cook's Eldritch Might books he has a series of cantrips that let you speak one of the extraplanar lanaguages for a short duration. I think he created those spells for just this purpose, so that wizards wouldn't have to spend tons of skill points to be able to communicate with summoned creatures.

If you are going to summon a lot of creatures, there are a couple of PrCs that are useful to look into, mostly because they have Speak Language as a class skill, notably the Mage of the Arcane Order and the Loremaster. The Loremaster class even gives you two extra skill points per level to fuel your language studies.

 

[Zad]

There's another angle here to consider but it's kind of wierd. It has nothing to do with game balance though.

Personally I find it a LOT easier to deal with constructs as a player than I do summoned monsters. You have a ton of monsters, I need to know what they can/cannot do, have stats on hand, etc. This is a great way to bog down a game especially if you don't have your stuff prepped ahead of time.

On the other hand, constructs have fairly consistent stats and you just have to plug in the special abilities. I find it a lot easier to work with as a player and would assume as a DM also