How do you whip a group into shape?

Creamsteak

Explorer
I have a pool of 30+ players, of them I play with 4-6 at a time. I don't have any excellent Role-Players that I know of, but I'm also lucky enough that everyone respects the game enough not to abuse the rules.

Problem is, even with two years of 3rd edition being played, we lack players that have a grasp of the rules. One person has a solid grasp of combat, and impresses me when he calls up things I forget over time -but for the most part I'm the only player that even has a chance when playing a solid wizard or cleric. Nobody else is very good with spell selection, so they tend to play sorcerers if anything -so they only feel the need to learn magic missle/melf's acid arrow/fireball/Ice Storm/Cone of Cold/etc.

Everyone is solidly convinced the only good character below 5th level is a fighter, but I have tried to teach them by example that most classes are at least as good when played well. It's hard, and my constant efforts havn't been enough. Everyone has books and books, but none of the casters ever read the players hand book spells they really should examine right before a session.

So, I'm curious, how did your players get into shape? When did they buckle down and learn the rules for themselves instead of drawing all answers from the DM? I have no problem with house-ruling when we are all blind, but I still feel like they should be able to make the decision to roll the 20 to attack, make a save, make a check, or such... why do they still ask me that!?!

It wasn't such a problem, but my players latest campaign is borderlining on 7th level, which is starting to touch into long-running territory since revives should be easily accessed by the group from that point on, at least in my game. I'd like them to feel like they were independant of any baby-sitting, because I know they like the challenge.
 

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well, this is kinda harsh, but start killing them. and after you kill them tell them what they should have done.

don't go out of your way to kill them, but if they need hand-holding (which you've done long enough IMHO) they'll eventually get themselves killed because of inexperience/stupidity.

they'll learn from hard lessons and death often opens up new areas of role-playing.

If you've already been killing them, which i tend to avoid with newbesque people because it takes awhile for people to understand the game is what's fun and not the advancement, i dont have any advice for you.... hrm..

make them play an all wizard/sorc/cleric campaign? :)

joe b.
 

I don't think that you should tell them what they should have done. That's just going to make them think that you think they are stupid. Rather, you should say that the CR was appropriate, and that people on this board came up with solutions to the challenge.

And maybe your players just don't want to be bothered to learn the rules. Talk to them, tell them that the fun of the game is lessened if you have to explain things to them and that you'd rather they took the time to learn the rules. I'm sure you can come to a compromise.
 

First off, make your feelings on this matter clear to your players. Do it respectfully. I'm a big rules guy myself; heck I enjoy reading them in the off time. Some of my fellow players don't...they just want to show up and play instead of spending out of game time learning a complex set of rules. But they've learned them out of respect for their fellow players and DM, and because they understand that it will make the game more enjoyable for all.

So, how do we 1) make the rules easy to learn 2) make learning the rules seem worthwhile?

A few suggestions:

1) The combat seminar - just play a few quick scenarios designed to teach the basic rules. I did this a one shot with agroup of seventh level monks to teach about balance, jump and tumble. Make some silly theme (fighter basic traing, gladiator combats) and then run fights designed to illustrate the rules, including some fo the more obscure tactics (if you litter the battelfield with pits, they'll begin to take a keen interest in bull rush!)

2) The handout - I think there is some out there already (anagransomethingsomething's sheets), and I know the old Eric Noah site had a good Attack of Oppurtunity explanation. Make a two or three page ahndout explaining the key rules and ask the players to read it.

3) Cool NPCs that do tricks - Add an NPC cleric to he group who rocks through well chosen spells. Have enemies who use cool tactics (ogres that overrun...a trick that is not used nearly enough). They'll begin to realise that these actions are viable and useful.

4) Aarron Alliston's team building advice - from the Big Blue Hero Book. Put them up against a big opponent who can;t be beat with the standard tactics (think supervillian here..someone who would capture and ranson them if they lost, and wouldn't pursue them if they fled). Later, have them harrasses by a lower level party with superior tactics until they figure out how to beat them. Later put them against the supervillian again and watch them smack him down in a few rounds.

5) Once a month have a player run a one-shot session. Being in the DM's chair is a great incentive to learn the rules.
 





Give pop quizzes at the beginning of the sessions with right answers rewarded by experience points. Ask questions on things you think they should know like what "close" range is on spells.
 

Polydamas said:
So, how do we 1) make the rules easy to learn 2) make learning the rules seem worthwhile?

A few suggestions:

1) The combat seminar - just play a few quick scenarios designed to teach the basic rules. I did this a one shot with agroup of seventh level monks to teach about balance, jump and tumble. Make some silly theme (fighter basic traing, gladiator combats) and then run fights designed to illustrate the rules, including some fo the more obscure tactics (if you litter the battelfield with pits, they'll begin to take a keen interest in bull rush!)

WotC's site did a series of article in the vein a while back called Gamestoppers. It's purpose was to show how certain aspects of the combat rules would actually play out in a game. I found it helpful in understanding some things like Grapple and Bull Rush.
 

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