How Does AI Affect Your Online Shopping?

[zakael19]

So, would your suggestion then be that I put the error back in my module all so that I can avoid being blacklisted by such a large part of the market?

Well that's stup$%@#^ % ^# %^#$ %^ #$^ # $ %^& #^& ^ & Oh wait, that was an emotional response. Not very useful. But no, I did not say emotion is not valid, but I disagree that it must be discussed in an emotional manner. It has to be discussed with emotional sensitivity and awareness. But in an emotional manner? You're the first person I've ever heard suggest something. Pretty sure all the professional advice is to not let emotions drive the discuss but to rather approach such topics with sensitivity and awareness.

But others said I should mark it as such, and per the quoted rules seems like I should. I agree it seems... troublesome. Because as pointed out, there is strong incentive for me to lie about it, or release an inferior product. Neither of which are good.

Yep, which is out of my budget for something that I would be lucky to sell 100 copies of.

I'm not a good proofreader or editor. And I got a second set of human eyes to take a look. Got the best I could afford (free) and they aren't very good (and never claimed to be, just a friend willing to help).

Yep, which leaves me with two practical choices; lie or release an inferior product. I'm not sure how that helps humans produce more quality RPG content, but hey...

Can't fix the harm, or at least not all of it. We haven't fixed all the harm of cars, or airplanes, or food distribution. But they certainly do more harm to people than AI does yet no one complains about them.

Sounds reasonable. But how does a RPG content creator communicate that info to a potential buyer effectively?

Bad stories get more clicks. Sensationalism sells. People don't want to hear the boring story about how AI caught 10 signs or early cancer at your local hospital last year...

But what about for tasks that humans are not affordable?

Sure, if everyone used the same AI with the same prompts. Though did you know that most LLMs don't give consistent results? Using different conversions/browsers/session, give them a fairly complex such of instruction and see how different the responses are. (You have to make sure it doesn't know who you are via cookies or login etc)

Wait, Morrus said he's had content accused of being AI generated. That's not slop...
And what about my use case? Does using AI to catch one minor plot hole now make my adventure slop? I don't think it was slop before AI gave me feedback on it. Assuming it wasn't, how does one suggested improvement now make it bad?
Or is slop just your term for anything that AI has generated and the term actually has no qualitative assessment in it?

You're lumping the tech community into a homogenous entity. There are parts of the tech community that are trying to sell to those targets. I will agree that a lot of the 'community' is targeting the populous targets. But, IMO that is because they are not actually looking to sell, but rather garner investment. Just like "cloud" and "VR/AR" and so other many tech fads we've seen. The technologies are real and useful, they just get abused by "salespeople" trying to garner investment dollars for a quick score. IMO

So I should publish a product with a minor plot hole in it and a couple of grammatical errors because my inexperienced editor missed them but an AI review did not?

Got it. So you would rather I publish a product with a few grammatical errors and a plot hole. Not sure how that helps the RPG consumer, but if I want your sales, I know what I need to do.

It's a really poor and ill formed shorthand. It implies a qualitative assessment even when such is not a valid criticism. It's like 'Defund the police' but then when asked some of those supporters say, 'well yea, we don't mean actually take away all their money.' How about something like; "harm' or even a full sentence like 'I won't support any AI products because it does too much harm.'

So how much do I devalue my module because my second editor (third if you count myself) was AI and caught a few things the writer and editor did not?

And that's based on what? Do you think you could and would actually evaluate my product and let me know if you think it has any value? It's pretty niche (FrontierSpace adventure), and then let me know how much value it might have without AI. And how do we value/de-value the grammar and plot hole issues it identified?

IMO not that I'm trying to be a RPG professional, but a small following would be awesome. So how do you feel about the AI use case as an editor I mentioned? Because I would have to subsidize my publishing just to afford a real editor.

LLMs / grammer checkers have been around for ages. If all you're doing is having it be a smarter then usual checker so you can correct things, that's one thing. If you're having it generate content for you that makes it into your final product, DriveThruRPG would say you should mark it as such.

 

[Epic Meepo]

I was in the middle of writing a lengthy reply to @LordEntrails, but @zakael19 beat me to the punch. My definition of AI-generated content closely matches the definition in the previous post.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm not a good proofreader or editor. And I got a second set of human eyes to take a look. Got the best I could afford (free) and they aren't very good (and never claimed to be, just a friend willing to help).

Look around a bit more. We’re out there.

But what about for tasks that humans are not affordable?

Like?

 

[Morrus]

It's a really poor and ill formed shorthand.

No, it’s a great, concise, and popular shorthand. You just don’t like it. Get used to it or not. Up to you. But I’m not interested in debating terminology.

Also, calm the hell down. I get that you’re passionate about this, but you are being incredibly aggressive in this thread. I let it pass earlier because it was directed at me and I was content to ignore you. But knock it off.

 

[Parmandur]

Yep, which leaves me with two practical choices; lie or release an inferior product. I'm not sure how that helps humans produce more quality RPG content, but hey...

That content free from AI sloppification is "inferior" is highly questionable. The most practical route is to do things the right way, even if it is inconvenient.

 

[CleverNickName]

Can't fix the harm, or at least not all of it. We haven't fixed all the harm of cars, or airplanes, or food distribution. But they certainly do more harm to people than AI does yet no one complains about them.

It's not like we haven't done anything about those things: improved licensing requirements, standards of practice, safety devices, and countless laws and regulations have been implemented for these things you mention. Nobody is demanding genAI (or anything else) be perfectly harmless--I assume, I'm not sure where you are going with this line of discussion--but plenty of people are demanding improved laws, regulations, and standards of practice regarding genAI. Just like consumers demand for literally everything else.

 

[LordEntrails]

You're asking what you should do? You should either follow the Drivethru guidelines and disclose that your product used AI in the creation or you should hire a professional editor. I'm not a huge publisher, but I've got an editor that I've worked with for the past seven years. He's worth every penny and my work is better for him. Plus, it helps to support the industry as a whole when people are paid fair wages for their work.

So I should subsidize the product because it will never gross enough to pay for a professional editor. Or, since I think it's pretty good I could just give it away for free. Therefore devaluing the RPG content market (just a tiny bit) for those that actually need to be paid a fair wage for RPG work.

The only reason I charge for my work is because I feel strongly that RPG professionals should get paid a fair wage. I also feel that the content I create now is near professional level. And if I release it for free, then I devalue that market. And then other creators that want to do it for a living will have a harder time doing so.

There are lots of options here, I just think that it's apparent the anti-AI crowd is not actually helping sustain RPG creators, not in the long term.

LLMs / grammer checkers have been around for ages. If all you're doing is having it be a smarter then usual checker so you can correct things, that's one thing. If you're having it generate content for you that makes it into your final product, DriveThruRPG would say you should mark it as such.

I'm not sure if using AI as an editor counts or not. Others think it does, and they have a strong point given the wording on DriveThru's page. I do think it does the community a disservice though to lump all AI use into the same pool or to taint everything AI touches as "slop".

Look around a bit more. We’re out there.
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Like?

So I would be happy to use you. What percentage of gross would you charge? Would you edit for grammar, structure, and plot a 15,000 word adventure? We'll be fortunate if it sells 100 copies. We can price it at whatever you think is fair. But I don't think that would pay you a fair wage. Or, what about a flat rate? And since I'm not trying to build a business, what part of my personal discretionary budget does this come from?

Also, calm the hell down. I get that you’re passionate about this, but you are being incredibly aggressive in this thread. I let it pass earlier because it was directed at me and I was content to ignore you. But knock it off.

I'm sorry. Did not mean to sound aggressive and certainly don't feel aggravation about this topic. I will certainly try, and am always open to constructive feedback to help me improve. I know I'm not good at presenting tone or attitude in written form. (Work does have an AI agent that reviews email for tone, maybe something similar ... oh wait, yeah, that wouldn't go over well.)

That content free from AI sloppification is "inferior" is highly questionable. The most practical route is to do things the right way, even if it is inconvenient.

I'm trying to figure out the right way. Hence why the specific example and the questions. Apparently my tone and level of honest inquiry is not being communicated. And I see a lot of options, but here seem to the be the most morally sound, I just don't know which is the "right way".

• Publish with the AI suggested corrections and make a statement to that affect. Immediately lose more than 50% of the market because they don't care how AI was used and will boycott it. Many of them will also boycott anything I have already published or do produce in the future.
• Remove the AI suggested corrections and publish as is. Knowing there are a couple of errors. (Do I publish an errata then stating I know about the errors but can't amend the file?)
• Hire a professional editor and RPG reviewer and send them the pre-improved version and see if they catch the errors AI caught? (Do I tell them about the known errors or risk being accused of trapping them?) And then publish free from the AI tainted slop? And in the meantime do I take funds from my personal budget to pay for this knowing it will never profit enough to pay back the editor's fair wage? (Note, I'm not trying to start a business here, so it's not about investing in the future. I'm trying not to devalue the RPG creation market).

All, in the end I think this is a complex topic. And one emotionally charged as well. Truly I'm trying to be aware and sensitive to all views. I just don't see absolutes being the long-term solution for the TTRPG industry or community.

 

[zakael19]

I mean, I've got some co-workers who used ChatGPT as proofreading for their academic papers, and it pretty clearly wasn't just for like "hey, flag stuff for me to revise" but much more" revise the work and change the wording. Flagging bad grammar or inconsistencies to a human and then they go fix it is one thing, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most LLM users are letting it do more. And then you're probably hitting the DTRPG limit.

Ideally, give it to a couple friends if it's a low budget thing; if you're trying to actually make some money, run it through a human editor. They'll pick up whole-document context that AI does not yet (especially given the RPG-culture stuff).

 

[Incenjucar]

And that's based on what? Do you think you could and would actually evaluate my product and let me know if you think it has any value? It's pretty niche (FrontierSpace adventure), and then let me know how much value it might have without AI. And how do we value/de-value the grammar and plot hole issues it identified?

I've been working with and studying LLMs for a decade. I know how they work, why they work, what they can do, what they're actually good for, what they're not good for, an so on, been playing RPGs since the early 90s, etc. etc. I'm not paid to review random RPGs, though I actually have a tiny background in that as well thanks to folks taking a shine to my commentary on some 3E sketch art back on the WotC forums. I'm certainly not a major source for broad RPG knowledge, but could I quickly figure it if something was worth my time, yeah, and I certainly would if I was flipping through it at my FLGS.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So I would be happy to use you. What percentage of gross would you charge? Would you edit for grammar, structure, and plot a 15,000 word adventure? We'll be fortunate if it sells 100 copies. We can price it at whatever you think is fair. But I don't think that would pay you a fair wage. Or, what about a flat rate?

I’ve edited stuff for free when I thought it appropriate.

When I have edited for pay, it’s always been at an hourly rate, depending on the task. Legal editing gets done at my lawyer hourly rate. Everything else below that is negotiable.

Would I work on the project described? That depends on what I think of the project itself. Not kidding- I’ve turned down legal work that would have made me a millionaire, because I wasn’t the right attorney for the job.

And since I'm not trying to build a business, what part of my personal discretionary budget does this come from?

If you can’t get part of a project done for free or at an affordable rate given your discretionary budget, perhaps it’s not the right time to do the project. Or you could do what other creatives short on cash have done in the past: get a loan, some kind of sponsorship, or even sell some or all of the ownership rights you’d normally have.

I personally create things in a wide variety of formats: written fiction, chord books for unusual guitar tunings, music compositions, illustrations in pencils, inks and pastels, acrylic paintings and even new recipes.

Beyond that, I’ve designed & commissioned various kinds of jewelry, fabric art and even two custom guitars.

At no point have I asked for someone to discount their work for me, but some definitely have anyway. Because of my unwillingness to seek discounts for services, I’ve got loads of physical and digital sketchbooks & notebooks of creations that will probably never see creation in their final intended forms because I can’t afford the price. Hell- I’m currently bartering my design skills and some of my materials to get certain jewelry pieces made because the price of gold has skyrocketed.