dreaded_beast
First Post
While reading a prior thread, many posters wrote about how Expert Tactician and Combat Reflexes resulted in gaining an extra attack?
How does this work?
How does this work?
How does Combat Reflexes and Expert Tactician Give an Extra Attack?
- Thread starter dreaded_beast
- Start date
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
And if you have Blink or Greater Invis active, opponents are always (unless they have blindfight or uncanny dodge) denied their dex against you so you get the extra attack every round.
dreaded_beast
First Post
Elder-Basilisk said:
Nice...
Now, imagine if this char had sneak attack.
Ouch.
Although less effective, I think the rogue who Improved Feints to deny them their Dex, then hits them twice is more stylish.
Although would they get their SA dice on both hits? The Expert Tactician extra attack goes off as soon as someone in melee range is denied their Dex to AC, and that attack can happen before or after their normal actions...
But Feinting in Combat only denies them Dex to AC on the next attack.
Consider:
--Rogue successfully feints as a MEA to deny their opponent their Dex to AC.
---- Expert Tactician provides an extra attack against that opponent.
--Rogue takes his Standard Action to attack the opponent and applies SA dice to the hit.
--The opponent is no longer denied his Dex to his AC.
Does this mean the Rogue can no longer take his Expert Tactician attack?
Or if this happens:
--Rogue successfully feints as a MEA to deny their opponent their Dex to AC.
---- Expert Tactician provides an extra attack against that opponent.
--Rogue takes his extra ET attack against his opponent and applies SA dice.
--Rogue takes his Standard Action to attack.
Maybe it's just me, but I think a character dedicated to feinting and taking advantage of those feints should get SA dice twice. That, and I think it's a cool fencing tactic. Is there any way to do this without resorting to magic?
Although would they get their SA dice on both hits? The Expert Tactician extra attack goes off as soon as someone in melee range is denied their Dex to AC, and that attack can happen before or after their normal actions...
But Feinting in Combat only denies them Dex to AC on the next attack.
Consider:
--Rogue successfully feints as a MEA to deny their opponent their Dex to AC.
---- Expert Tactician provides an extra attack against that opponent.
--Rogue takes his Standard Action to attack the opponent and applies SA dice to the hit.
--The opponent is no longer denied his Dex to his AC.
Does this mean the Rogue can no longer take his Expert Tactician attack?
Or if this happens:
--Rogue successfully feints as a MEA to deny their opponent their Dex to AC.
---- Expert Tactician provides an extra attack against that opponent.
--Rogue takes his extra ET attack against his opponent and applies SA dice.
--Rogue takes his Standard Action to attack.
Maybe it's just me, but I think a character dedicated to feinting and taking advantage of those feints should get SA dice twice. That, and I think it's a cool fencing tactic. Is there any way to do this without resorting to magic?
dreaded_beast
First Post
hmm...
this got me thinking....
if you made a character that had spring attack and the ability to cast the blink spell, would it be foolish NOT to take expert tactician and have a few levels in a class that offered sneak attack damage?
i say spring attack, because if you can cast blink, you have to be at least 5th level wizard or 6th sorcerer, which means you have some pretty low hit points. if for whatever reason you say yourself in melee alot, you probably would want to be the one hit wonder: get in, take a crack, and then get out.
taking that above example, if you played your character like that, why wouldn't you take expert tactician and a couple of levels of rogue for sneak attack?
this got me thinking....
if you made a character that had spring attack and the ability to cast the blink spell, would it be foolish NOT to take expert tactician and have a few levels in a class that offered sneak attack damage?
i say spring attack, because if you can cast blink, you have to be at least 5th level wizard or 6th sorcerer, which means you have some pretty low hit points. if for whatever reason you say yourself in melee alot, you probably would want to be the one hit wonder: get in, take a crack, and then get out.
taking that above example, if you played your character like that, why wouldn't you take expert tactician and a couple of levels of rogue for sneak attack?
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
dreaded_beast said:
Actually, it would be useless as long as you're using the Song and Silence version of Expert Tactician. That version specifies that the attack has to happen either before or after your normal action and that it has to be a melee attack. When using spring attack, you do not generally threaten your opponent either before or after your spring attack and consequently are unlikely to be able to use the Expert Tactician attack.
Expert Tactician is a very good feat and spring attack is a very good feat but they don't work very well together.
And the character who has sneak attack and Spring Attack, doesn't need Blink to pull off sneak attacks. Simply Spring Attack into a flanking position, sneak attack and withdraw to safety. (Now what can you do without the 5+ wizard levels killing your BAB, HP, and sneak attack progression?)
Between three combinations of the abilities you discuss (blink +ET, Blink+SA, Spring Attack +SA), there's a lot of synergy. However, adding the third element to the mix doesn't add anything extra.
I can think of a few reasons you wouldn't take rogue levels as well.
First, your BAB is already low enough that hitting reliably is a problem. There's no reason to exacerbate that problem by taking a rogue level.
Second, your caster level has probably already taken enough hits that taking enough rogue levels to crank sneak attack would be painful.
Third, most characters will run into favored class/XP penalty dificulties if they have fighter/bbn/ranger/pal, sor/wiz, and rogue levels.
That's not to say that a character couldn't be built to take advantage of the synergy between blink, expert tactician, and sneak attack. (I imagine that, with some work and some luck, a melee focussed rogue/wizard/arcane trickster could be pulled off although it probably wouldn't be much better (in terms of damage) than an archery focussed one (rapid shot gives another attack just as surely as expert tactician) and would inevitably be extremely low-hp for a melee focussed build).
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Felix said:
My own take on this is as follows:
There is no synergy between bluff and Expert Tactician at all.
Bluff denies your opponent dex vs your next attack.
Until the attack occurs your opponent has dex.
After the attack occurs your opponent has dex.
Your opponent is only denied dex at the precise moment you make the next melee attack.
Song and Silence ET grants the attack when your foe is denied your dex either before or after your normal actions.
At neither of those points is your opponent denied his/her dex. Therefore ET never kicks in.
The 3.0 FAQ disagrees with this interpretation and has a bizarre passage that seems to be following the Sword and Fist text of ET rather than the Song and Silence one since it directly contradicts the text of the S&S ET by allowing it to function more than once/round. IMO, that FAQ is best ignored.
I think it's also reasonable (although not correct according to the letter of the rules) to use your second interpretation and give one Sneak Attack and one normal attack.
If you wanted a feat that would let a very skilled duellist feint twice for extra damage, you might look at a Duellist prestige class (with the Precise Strike ability--it's similar to SA but easier to get) or create a feat like this:
Supreme Feint:
Prereqs: BAB +9, 15 ranks of bluff, Int 13+, dex 15+
Benefit: When you successfully feint in combat to deny an opponent his dex bonus, you may make an immediate attack against that opponent. (This counts as your next melee attack).
Normal: You must take an attack action or be fortunate enough to get an AoO in order to attack after feinting.
Norfleet
First Post
The S&S text of ET does not specify that the feat may only be used once per round.Elder-Basilisk said:
So, the key points of contention: The feat may only be used once per round....this is never specified. It DOES specify that you can make one extra melee attack opponent who is denied dexterity bonus, and you can only use this feat against one opponent, but it is not specified that it can be fired only once per round, merely that you may only attack one opponent, regardless of how many opponents are dex-deprived by any single event that triggers denial-of-dexterity. If you are invisible and walk into a crowd, a single event which triggers denial-of-dexterity, you receive only one attack, not multiple attacks against all opponents.S&S ET Description said:
The other point of contention is "before or after your regular action". The term "regular action" is not defined, and can be interpreted as meaning that the extra attack must be taken before or after an action, not during, so a run-by stabbing could not be performed while performing a run action, since the attack must be taken before or after the action. "Regular" seems to be a meaningless qualifier, unless some actions are deemed irregular, and therefore unsuitable for consideration as regular actions.
The errata suggests that a "regular" action apparently means after an action, either an MEA, or a standard action, and that the feat is not limited to firing once per round only.
Thus, the errata'ed sequence, an MEA feint (regular action), is followed by an ET extra attack, and then can be followed by another MEA feint (another regular action), which triggers a second denial-of-dexterity event, allowing a second extra attack that follows immediately.
Since the errata text does not directly contradict the above, AFAICT, it appears that the errata, while questionable to some, is one possible correct interpretation.
