D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?

[Hriston]

If A wants surprise then B will have to sit out the first round if they aren't immediately attacking. If B is attacking immediately then A won't get surprise but could still get advantage attacking while hidden. Of course no one can attack A until they reveal themselves.

So does B have an in-game reason for not charging into the melee to take advantage of the surprise that their companions have caused. Or are they just metagaming?

 

[Hriston]

No need. It is already perfectly clear from context.

I think my interpretation is pretty clear too. But since you brought up context, let's look at the preceding passage about how the DM determines surprise, and see how that contextualizes what "a threat" may mean. The "DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side." (PBR, p. 69.) Notice how it says "anyone hiding". Now what would be the point, for the purposes of determining surprise, to check the Stealth of a creature, unless that creature was capable of causing surprise? If an entire "side" of a conflict had to be hidden to cause surprise, then there would be no point in checking the Stealth of isolated creatures who are attempting to hide while their allies are not. That wouldn't determine surprise. And yet it says "anyone". I think its pretty clear that if the designers didn't intend my meaning, then at the very least they intended to build some real ambiguity into these rules concerning surprise.

 

[Hriston]

The DM is the one that prepares the encounters and what everyone (apart from the players) is doing and how they fight.

I know what a DM is.

If some creature just happens to surprise someone - that's fine. But if they usually fight by attempting to surprise - they know what it takes to get it done.
So if the dragon wanted to surprise the party, it would have struck before the party encountered the kobold or after the they had dealt with the kobold. If the dragon was just sneaking about for other reasons and just happened to attack them at that moment, thus failing to surprise - how is that an equally absurd result?

It's just as absurd for a weak creature (who maybe shouldn't be considered a threat at all) to spoil surprise for a strong creature who would otherwise cause surprise if not for the very presence of that weak creature, as it is for a weak creature to cause surprise despite the obvious presence of some strong creature(s). Of course monsters have tactics that they know have a good chance of working within the reality of the game, but that is different from the DM playing the monsters as if they know what the rules of the game are, and as I'm sure you know already I'm not entirely satisfied with the assumptions you are making about the rules. My example was meant to question those assumptions with an in-game reality check, so to reassert the same assumptions by asking the in-game reality to conform to them is kind of missing the point.

 

[Cyberen]

We are hitting the same issues as the "8 level party against CR 13 Dragon" thread initiated by Celtavian.
The DM has to pick a style, either going for a "Rules first" or a "Story first" approach.
I am not taking sides, but I think this edition is not meant to be pushed too far on the Rules First side : when you try to adjudicate something more complex than an orc with a pie, the rules are not very clear (see our discussion about "a" threat), not very consistent, not very robust (actually giving somebody two turns in a row, with the crazy DPR and mobility given to some PCs and monsters, is really unbalanced).
On the other hand, all these rules bugs becomes guidelines features if you take a Story First approach. To adjudicate surprise, use some kind of contested check, and give the parties some kind of bonus or penalty along the line of free movement, winning or losing initiative, getting ad/disad on the first round.
For instance, when the adventurers bullying a kobold discover they are actually facing a dragon, you are clearly in the province of "Story First !". Go ahead, give the dragon the opportunity to turn up and land where it wants, and the kobold to step away. Look at your players'faces, and play their feeling up to eleven, be it fear, sorrow, despair, anger or excitement, give them some roll (insight ? Perception ? Combat awareness ? Single or group check ? With or without disad ? Your call according to the player attitude and the character build) not to be denied too much agenda during the 1st round. Total success for the PCs mean they get the jump on the dragon and win initiative (and no LA for the wyrm !). Total failure means they take Frightful Presence + Breath weapon, with disad on one of the saves. Am I following the RAW. No ! Am I ruling in the spirit of 5e ? I bet I am !

 

[fjw70]

P

But none of this is a comment on clarity. It's a comment on the merits of a particular interpretation. And those merits are disputed - for instance, as I've suggested multiple times upthread, it may be that the rogue in question is not a threat.

If the monsters really are startled by the threat of the rogue's sudden attack, though, then to me it makes perfect sense for them to hesitate. Their morale is temporarily broken. It's not as if it was never a viable tactic in real world warfare to gain an advantage over an enemy by having part of one's force attack from hiding. Doesn't Conan also use this tactic in the climax of Hour of the Dragon?

The "is the rogue a threat" thing doesn't make much since either. The rogue may be capable of doing 10 points or 100 points of damage, and if he misses his surprise attack then the monster doesn't know how much of a threat he was and should change how it reacts to the attack.

I can see a fog of war thing freezing an opponent when surprised but to always freeze them just doesn't make sense. I guess you could give the surprised characters a morale check to see if they are frozen but that just complicates things and since a system such as this is not part of the surprise rules then I doubt they were going in that direction.

If asked their answer probably would be run it what ever way makes sense to your group. Which is the best answer of course.

 

[fjw70]

So does B have an in-game reason for not charging into the melee to take advantage of the surprise that their companions have caused. Or are they just metagaming?

No metagaming. When A attacks if B is coordinating a simultaneous attack then the PCs are tipped off as B goes for their weapons or makes other aggressive moves. If B waits until after A attacks as to not tip of off the surprise then they have decided not not attack until after the first round.

Remember the round is a very short period of time so its not like B has a chance to take a nap while round 1 is happening. If B sits out round one then is goes like this.

PCs and B are talking and no one is making aggressive moves. A is hidden.
Round one: A attacks and some arrows fly out of the woods.
Round two: both the PCs and B react to that everyone joins the fight.

 

[Hriston]

Surprise is different in 5e. In the playtest there was a readiness score and sneaking, now both are thrown together into one surprise roll.

This is essentially true. In the final playtest there were two ways a creature could be surprised. The first way did require each and every member of an opposing group to successfully hide by contesting their stealth checks against either the perception or search checks of the creature in question. If this was successful, it would establish a state of surprise in the individual and would head-off the second means for determining surprise which was for each creature on both sides to make a wisdom check versus a readiness DC determined by either their travel pace, if they were characters, or their alertness, a largely undefined quality that only applied to monsters. This meant that at the beginning of a combat encounter each individual could potentially be making two wisdom checks, only the first of which would be modified by any perception proficiency, unless there was some reason for them to be using search on that first contest.

The 5e rules have cleaned things up quite a bit, IMO. The readiness DC is gone, but travel pace still plays a significant role in that a fast pace imposes a -5 penalty to passive perception scores, and anything above a slow pace makes using stealth impossible. The passive score has replaced the readiness DC and is now used as the DC for each creature's stealth check who is attempting to hide, making it the DC to cause surprise in the one whose score it is. Now instead of everyone rolling, perhaps twice, we have only those who are attempting to hide, and thus surprise, making a roll. This seems preferable.

The most notable difference, in terms of this discussion, between the playtest and 5e, is the removal of the language about "one group" having surprise because it "is hidden from the other" from the hard conditions for surprise. A similar phrase is included in the PBR, but it only applies to specific situations that are given as possible examples of surprise. Also of note is that this was not the only way that one could be surprised in the playtest, as I have outlined above in terms of failing to hit one's readiness DC if an entire side has failed to hide.

Which means "catching someone in a moment where he is not prepared for combat".
Someone in a fight is always prepared for combat.

... unless that someone is surprised. Surprise is determined before combat begins but it doesn't go into effect until the first round, so those who have been surprised can certainly be said to be in a fight, and yet be in an unprepared state, if that is how you wish to define surprise.

 

[Hriston]

No metagaming. When A attacks if B is coordinating a simultaneous attack then the PCs are tipped off as B goes for their weapons or makes other aggressive moves. If B waits until after A attacks as to not tip of off the surprise then they have decided not not attack until after the first round.

Not necessarily, B could decide to ready an action that would take place when A attacks. It really depends on the narrative you wish to construct.

Remember the round is a very short period of time so its not like B has a chance to take a nap while round 1 is happening.

Six seconds is enough time to move, pull out a weapon, and attack with it. It says so right in the rules.

If B sits out round one then is goes like this.

PCs and B are talking and no one is making aggressive moves. A is hidden.
Round one: A attacks and some arrows fly out of the woods.
Round two: both the PCs and B react to that everyone joins the fight.

Here's my take on the OP:

Both the musketeers and the lone PC are hidden in the woods so everyone is potentially surprised except for the lone PC because he is the only one who is aware of all the parties involved. I would have everyone roll initiative, but would only allow the lone PC to act on the first round. Everyone would get to go on their initiative in the second round.

 

[Hriston]

There are two more things on this that I don't think have been considered thoroughly:

First, the assertion that some who are opposed to using Surprise in situations like this have made, that being surprised is the same as standing frozen with your mouth open while your enemies beat on you, is simply not the case. Surprised creatures are still able to take a reaction after their turn is over. So, for example, fighters with the Protection fighting style can impose disadvantage on an attack, rogues can use Uncanny Dodge, and wizards can cast any spell that can be cast as a reaction like Shield or Counterspell. All of this could happen in the first round.

Second is something that used to be called Encounter Distance. Ideally the first round should begin when the parties first become aware of each other. How far away are the pirates when the PCs first see them? Are the PCs within range of the snipers at this point? Is the first round taken up by closing that distance and opening a parlay? Are the pirates out in the open close enough to close the distance and attack in the same round? All of these things would have to be considered before one could say that A and B both get to attack on the first round, even if the PCs are walking into a situation where Surprise exists.

 

[TrippyHippy]

You say: “5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e5e”…… a million times over.

Then your kidneys pop out and go ‘“PIZZADELIVERYEXPRESS!!!”


….Well, that was a surprise…..