How Far Are Gamers Willing to Stretch D&D?
- Thread starter GMSkarka
- Start date
Dragonhelm
Knight of Solamnia
My advice is to find the right rules that match your setting, and go for it. If D&D works, then great! If a different system works, that's fine too.
The key, IMO, is that setting and characters come before rules. Rules serve the setting, not the other way around. I would think that your friends would want to come play to experience just how cool your western wuxia setting is.
What you may do is ask your players which game system they think would serve your setting the best. In the end, it's your game, so go with what's comfortable for you.
GreatLemur said:
I think it works out pretty well. Magnificent Seven was an Americanized version of Seven Samurai. And, there's a nifty comic trade paperback by my friend Sean J. Jordan called Sixgun Samurai (love the name) that blends the western and Oriental genres together nicely.
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
I sure as Hell would.GMSkarka said:
In fact, it sounds like something I read from Matt Forbeck on Mike Mearls' LiveJournal back in mid-2005 (and responded to on my own journal, which is why I still have access to it:
In college, a professor taught me that a western works like this: The in-group (usually townsfolk) is threatened by an out-group (usually outlaws). A hero with the values of the in-group and the skills of the out-group arrives to save the day. After succeeding, the hero must leave because his skills do not fit with the values of the in-group he's just saved.
It seems that Tolkienesque fantasy is the opposite of this. A person from the in-group (usually a peaceful town) leaves that locale and acquires the skills of the out-group (wizards, warriors, etc.) so that he can save in the in-group. He then returns home to accolades.
If your proposed setting's "core story" was like the above - which works just as well for wuxia tales as Western stories - I'd be really interested in it. But then, as I said in my own post back then:
I also, personally, vastly prefer the former kind of story to the latter - and the fact that Tolkien's story partly hinges on this dynamic is probably part of why I don't enjoy it. "Farmboy saves the world" is for jerks.
Nyaricus
First Post
Man, I say run it. RUN IT!
Drop Wizards, Sorcerers, druids, clerics, elves, dwarves, halflings. Use a bunch of the OA stuff, races included, and port in the psionics system and the updated OA classes from the Complete series.
I see this as Desert Wasteland with mighty citadels of cities with powerful Samurai and Paladins weilding justice, meddling Psions and Wu Jen, crafty, backwater Shujengas, monasteries in the high mountain passes filled with Sohei, Monks and Psychic Warriors, ninjas and rogues form mighty guils in the dark underworlds of the cities, mercaneries [fighters] fight bandits and barbarians [rangers and barbs] in the dust bowls between these cities, and there's a huge rush for gold all thw while, forcing alliances, hireing mercs, with guns, psychic powers and swords shooting, cutting and piercing the minds of their foes.
Wow, you live near Winnipeg at all?
cheers,
--N
Drop Wizards, Sorcerers, druids, clerics, elves, dwarves, halflings. Use a bunch of the OA stuff, races included, and port in the psionics system and the updated OA classes from the Complete series.
I see this as Desert Wasteland with mighty citadels of cities with powerful Samurai and Paladins weilding justice, meddling Psions and Wu Jen, crafty, backwater Shujengas, monasteries in the high mountain passes filled with Sohei, Monks and Psychic Warriors, ninjas and rogues form mighty guils in the dark underworlds of the cities, mercaneries [fighters] fight bandits and barbarians [rangers and barbs] in the dust bowls between these cities, and there's a huge rush for gold all thw while, forcing alliances, hireing mercs, with guns, psychic powers and swords shooting, cutting and piercing the minds of their foes.
Wow, you live near Winnipeg at all?
cheers,
--N
Arrgh! Mark!
First Post
Is it possible? Yes.
D20 has a nice ability for inexperienced people to tack on new rules easily within the framework, optional or not. There's an expansion called Spellslinger that somewhat follows your ideals here.
Is it optimal? No.
Personally I think other rules settings may be better. Basically it comes down to the fact that for a WW2 superheroes game, Godlike is simply better than M+M. I'm sure for instance you could do some Deadlands or savage worlds that would be better for this.
Personal Opinion:
I'm of the opinion that instead of stretching a rule system, you should deepen it. Instead of allowing every which combination of futuristic robots, swordsmen, and ninja pirates, why not focus instead on a very small (relative) thing, such as the mercenary groups around northern italy in the 14th century? Restriction breeds depth in many of these cases. Open character creation creates genre staples which *will* make those cheesy lines we love/hate so much.
D20 has a nice ability for inexperienced people to tack on new rules easily within the framework, optional or not. There's an expansion called Spellslinger that somewhat follows your ideals here.
Is it optimal? No.
Personally I think other rules settings may be better. Basically it comes down to the fact that for a WW2 superheroes game, Godlike is simply better than M+M. I'm sure for instance you could do some Deadlands or savage worlds that would be better for this.
Personal Opinion:
I'm of the opinion that instead of stretching a rule system, you should deepen it. Instead of allowing every which combination of futuristic robots, swordsmen, and ninja pirates, why not focus instead on a very small (relative) thing, such as the mercenary groups around northern italy in the 14th century? Restriction breeds depth in many of these cases. Open character creation creates genre staples which *will* make those cheesy lines we love/hate so much.
Stormborn
Explorer
1) Its amazing how many people seem to be responding to this like its for a home game and not for a company that actually would publish something.
2) If I understand what Gaerth is saying, he wants to build up an RPG that is mostly compatible with DnD but rather than being based on traditional Western European fantasy models that have been used to describe DnD so far. Given the suggested foundation of Wuxia and the American Western we have the following characteristics:
- Heroes with a code that involves righteousness and honour, which emphasize the importance of gracious deeds, favors, and revenge. (Code of Xia) Notions of revenge, personal accountability, and a generosity of spirit are also found in Westerns - although in part that may be becuase many of the classic western films are inspired by samuri movies.
- Heroes who obey their own rules rather than figures in authority, either becuase the authorities are corrupt or dishonorable (wuxia) or nonexistant (Westerns) or both.
- Heroes who are masters at a martial form, often involving weapons that are elevated to a fetish. These martial forms are often over the top in that they are based on real life techniques but are exagerated to the point of being supernatural. Both of the genres mentioned have these, although it is often more evident in Wuxia. Sometimes this involves "magic" but not always, more often than not the supernatural is a manifestation of physical and mental prowess than spell casting.
- Setting serves, although not always, to isolate the main characters. In Curse of the Golden Flower the setting is an imperial palace but that serves to isolate the main characters from the automiton like servants around them while in moveis like Hero or House of Flying Daggers much of the action takes places in remote locals. While some "westerns" take place in larger cities like St. Louis most of them are frontier towns.
Thats by no means an exhaustive list but I think it serves to illustrate that not only do wuxia and westerns have a lot in common, they also have a lot in common with DnD when approached from a certain angle. The trappings of the setting, asian inspired style or rugged western vistas, are secondary and in truth only serve to reinforce the previous elements. Thus, depending on presentation, I dont think its really that far out of the box at all. It really is going to depend on how you market it.
You can start with the basics of DnD but you would likely need:
- A clearer mechanic for having a Code. More than just the arbitray Paladins code interpretations. Some actual mechanic that gave bonuses for upholdign it and penalites for breaking it. True20 has Virtues and Vices and Conviction points, and PenDragon has rewards for livign up to a code. Something like that.
- A way to make combat more about one's skill with a weapon than the weapon itself. Iron Heores does this, and the concept of things that have uses per encounter rather than uses per day, a la Nine Swords also helps. I agree that it has to be more than just feats, but there may be a system than can be easily grafted on to DnD so that it can just be supplemental and not a whole new PHB, one that is not closed content or someone else' property.
- DnD magic doesnt seem to fit either genre, but I dont know if you need a real "magic" system at all. Something that focuses spirtual energy instead. Allows healing, great feats of strength and agility, or great accomplishments with a weapon. But no need for much else.
- The game likely needs a well defined purpose and direction. By which I mean it needs to be a game that says "this is writen for games in which the heroes do X kinds of things" It need not be everything for everyone. Especially not at first. If their is a demoand for expanidn the setting to include other styles of play they can be added in supplements.
- To distinguish it further from Traditional Fantasy it needs recomendations on how to replace the flavor of the one for the others. A good GMs guide and an adventure or two seem to be a must. New Monsters, or at least new flavor text for existing ones, also helps.
2) If I understand what Gaerth is saying, he wants to build up an RPG that is mostly compatible with DnD but rather than being based on traditional Western European fantasy models that have been used to describe DnD so far. Given the suggested foundation of Wuxia and the American Western we have the following characteristics:
- Heroes with a code that involves righteousness and honour, which emphasize the importance of gracious deeds, favors, and revenge. (Code of Xia) Notions of revenge, personal accountability, and a generosity of spirit are also found in Westerns - although in part that may be becuase many of the classic western films are inspired by samuri movies.
- Heroes who obey their own rules rather than figures in authority, either becuase the authorities are corrupt or dishonorable (wuxia) or nonexistant (Westerns) or both.
- Heroes who are masters at a martial form, often involving weapons that are elevated to a fetish. These martial forms are often over the top in that they are based on real life techniques but are exagerated to the point of being supernatural. Both of the genres mentioned have these, although it is often more evident in Wuxia. Sometimes this involves "magic" but not always, more often than not the supernatural is a manifestation of physical and mental prowess than spell casting.
- Setting serves, although not always, to isolate the main characters. In Curse of the Golden Flower the setting is an imperial palace but that serves to isolate the main characters from the automiton like servants around them while in moveis like Hero or House of Flying Daggers much of the action takes places in remote locals. While some "westerns" take place in larger cities like St. Louis most of them are frontier towns.
Thats by no means an exhaustive list but I think it serves to illustrate that not only do wuxia and westerns have a lot in common, they also have a lot in common with DnD when approached from a certain angle. The trappings of the setting, asian inspired style or rugged western vistas, are secondary and in truth only serve to reinforce the previous elements. Thus, depending on presentation, I dont think its really that far out of the box at all. It really is going to depend on how you market it.
You can start with the basics of DnD but you would likely need:
- A clearer mechanic for having a Code. More than just the arbitray Paladins code interpretations. Some actual mechanic that gave bonuses for upholdign it and penalites for breaking it. True20 has Virtues and Vices and Conviction points, and PenDragon has rewards for livign up to a code. Something like that.
- A way to make combat more about one's skill with a weapon than the weapon itself. Iron Heores does this, and the concept of things that have uses per encounter rather than uses per day, a la Nine Swords also helps. I agree that it has to be more than just feats, but there may be a system than can be easily grafted on to DnD so that it can just be supplemental and not a whole new PHB, one that is not closed content or someone else' property.
- DnD magic doesnt seem to fit either genre, but I dont know if you need a real "magic" system at all. Something that focuses spirtual energy instead. Allows healing, great feats of strength and agility, or great accomplishments with a weapon. But no need for much else.
- The game likely needs a well defined purpose and direction. By which I mean it needs to be a game that says "this is writen for games in which the heroes do X kinds of things" It need not be everything for everyone. Especially not at first. If their is a demoand for expanidn the setting to include other styles of play they can be added in supplements.
- To distinguish it further from Traditional Fantasy it needs recomendations on how to replace the flavor of the one for the others. A good GMs guide and an adventure or two seem to be a must. New Monsters, or at least new flavor text for existing ones, also helps.
Last edited:
GreatLemur
Explorer
Nice writeup, Stormborn. Lotta good ideas, there.
GMSkarka, I don't know how much of a fleshed-out setting you might already have in mind, but I've reflexively started coming up with a world to fit the images that "wuxia/western" conjures up for me. I think the most vital thing is that the setting needs to be a frontier--a place distant from any powerful authority--and probably one that's mostly arid and barren (although there are a whole lot of different terrain types possible within that mandate). It should be a place where people have to work hard to survive, forming close-knit, isolated communities, and the roving gangs of bandits that prey on them.
A few people have said things to the effect of "What will you do with the elves?", and my instinct is just to leave them out entirely. I don't see any need for non-human PC races, here. Instead, I'm picturing a landscape of multi-ethnic and culturally-diverse humanity. The setting concept that springs to mind, actually, is one where humans--maybe even whole towns--from Earth have been falling through holes in reality into some harsh alien world for generations, and people from all over our world have built a new civilization--or civilizations--in that world. Maybe holes stopped occurring a long time ago, even, because I'm not really interested in imagining this as a "regular folks dumped into crazy alien world" scenario, just in appropriating a bunch of cultural elements from Earth and mashing them together somewhere else.
So, technology and the people who know how to work with it have been falling through to this new world (maybe up until the late 1800s), but it's a brutal environment with few natural resources and little to no centralized authority: still basically a frontier. The basic infrastructures of civilized life and mass production haven't really had a chance to take root, so far. Without the power of machines and legal authority around, the personal power of martial arts looms large in the world, and has effected the new civilization strongly. Monastaries with their roots in ancient China are major power centers and cultural influences.
Eventually, people discover how to make a gunpowder-equivalent with materials from the new world, and revolvers, rifles, and shotguns similar to those of the American West begin to reappear. This shakes things up for a little while, maybe shatters some of the existing structures, but eventually guns become a part of the world's culture, as much a weapon of mystics and martial artists as the sword ever was.
Aside from the descendants of plane-lost Earthlings, the world could be populated with all kinds of interesting things. You could throw in an intelligent indigenous species or two--maybe even D&D demihumans, if you really want--to fill in the role of the Indian in western stories: Alien, mystical, primitive, traditional, and at perfectly home in the same world other consider a hostile frontier. They'd also be the natural way to insert some magic into the setting, if you really want (personally, I'd rather stick to just qi and kung fu). (Or, for that matter, maybe the natives died out long ago, leaving behind ruins full of strange artifacts, and giant statues half buried in the desert.) Also, of course, the world can be populated by loads of weird monsters (once again, regular D&D stuff can work fine, here).
For mechanics, I'm totally with Stormborn on the idea of having players choose a code of honor for their characters, and give rewards for upholding it. Mind you, these codes don't have to be good and righteous moralities, just rules that characters try to live by, like "I avenge every slight done to myself in kind." or "I never pass up an opportunity for profit without honest work."
The rewards for following these, naturally, would be some kind of action points. And, naturally, action points are hugely necessary for supporting wuxia-style combat. Give out lots of action points which can be spent on lots of different things (like the usual d20 roll bonuses and get-out-of-death-free stuff, but maybe also things like the use of a feat that you don't actually have--but do qualify for--for one round).
Also important to wuxia combat would be a stunt system of some kind: Lots of combat uses for skill checks, bonuses on checks for interesting ideas and cool action descriptions, etc. I'd suggest implementing a maneuver system like the one in The Book of Iron Might and Iron Heroes. An alternate critical system might also be good, where instead of double damage, a character can use a crit to add some additional effect to an attack.
Something like Iron Heroes' token pools also might be the best way to do a qi system: Characters start each fight with a number of qi points based on their level/class/feats, but can replenish these in the middle of combat by taking a moment--and sacrificing actions--to focus themselves.
I get the impression you'd rather work with the base classes and just add some feats, rather than come up with a whole replacement PHB, like Arcana Evolved and Iron Heroes. I think that can work, but it can't really be optimal. I dunno. My idea of this whole concept is probably just further from D&D than you're really intending to go.
Whichever way you go, I think a book like this would have to rely strongly on art to get its flavor across to players. Illustrations of characters that embody at once both western and wuxia themes are extremely necessary, and shots of the world itself--both the wilderness and what passes for civilization--are probably just as important.
GMSkarka, I don't know how much of a fleshed-out setting you might already have in mind, but I've reflexively started coming up with a world to fit the images that "wuxia/western" conjures up for me. I think the most vital thing is that the setting needs to be a frontier--a place distant from any powerful authority--and probably one that's mostly arid and barren (although there are a whole lot of different terrain types possible within that mandate). It should be a place where people have to work hard to survive, forming close-knit, isolated communities, and the roving gangs of bandits that prey on them.
A few people have said things to the effect of "What will you do with the elves?", and my instinct is just to leave them out entirely. I don't see any need for non-human PC races, here. Instead, I'm picturing a landscape of multi-ethnic and culturally-diverse humanity. The setting concept that springs to mind, actually, is one where humans--maybe even whole towns--from Earth have been falling through holes in reality into some harsh alien world for generations, and people from all over our world have built a new civilization--or civilizations--in that world. Maybe holes stopped occurring a long time ago, even, because I'm not really interested in imagining this as a "regular folks dumped into crazy alien world" scenario, just in appropriating a bunch of cultural elements from Earth and mashing them together somewhere else.
So, technology and the people who know how to work with it have been falling through to this new world (maybe up until the late 1800s), but it's a brutal environment with few natural resources and little to no centralized authority: still basically a frontier. The basic infrastructures of civilized life and mass production haven't really had a chance to take root, so far. Without the power of machines and legal authority around, the personal power of martial arts looms large in the world, and has effected the new civilization strongly. Monastaries with their roots in ancient China are major power centers and cultural influences.
Eventually, people discover how to make a gunpowder-equivalent with materials from the new world, and revolvers, rifles, and shotguns similar to those of the American West begin to reappear. This shakes things up for a little while, maybe shatters some of the existing structures, but eventually guns become a part of the world's culture, as much a weapon of mystics and martial artists as the sword ever was.
Aside from the descendants of plane-lost Earthlings, the world could be populated with all kinds of interesting things. You could throw in an intelligent indigenous species or two--maybe even D&D demihumans, if you really want--to fill in the role of the Indian in western stories: Alien, mystical, primitive, traditional, and at perfectly home in the same world other consider a hostile frontier. They'd also be the natural way to insert some magic into the setting, if you really want (personally, I'd rather stick to just qi and kung fu). (Or, for that matter, maybe the natives died out long ago, leaving behind ruins full of strange artifacts, and giant statues half buried in the desert.) Also, of course, the world can be populated by loads of weird monsters (once again, regular D&D stuff can work fine, here).
For mechanics, I'm totally with Stormborn on the idea of having players choose a code of honor for their characters, and give rewards for upholding it. Mind you, these codes don't have to be good and righteous moralities, just rules that characters try to live by, like "I avenge every slight done to myself in kind." or "I never pass up an opportunity for profit without honest work."
The rewards for following these, naturally, would be some kind of action points. And, naturally, action points are hugely necessary for supporting wuxia-style combat. Give out lots of action points which can be spent on lots of different things (like the usual d20 roll bonuses and get-out-of-death-free stuff, but maybe also things like the use of a feat that you don't actually have--but do qualify for--for one round).
Also important to wuxia combat would be a stunt system of some kind: Lots of combat uses for skill checks, bonuses on checks for interesting ideas and cool action descriptions, etc. I'd suggest implementing a maneuver system like the one in The Book of Iron Might and Iron Heroes. An alternate critical system might also be good, where instead of double damage, a character can use a crit to add some additional effect to an attack.
Something like Iron Heroes' token pools also might be the best way to do a qi system: Characters start each fight with a number of qi points based on their level/class/feats, but can replenish these in the middle of combat by taking a moment--and sacrificing actions--to focus themselves.
I get the impression you'd rather work with the base classes and just add some feats, rather than come up with a whole replacement PHB, like Arcana Evolved and Iron Heroes. I think that can work, but it can't really be optimal. I dunno. My idea of this whole concept is probably just further from D&D than you're really intending to go.
Whichever way you go, I think a book like this would have to rely strongly on art to get its flavor across to players. Illustrations of characters that embody at once both western and wuxia themes are extremely necessary, and shots of the world itself--both the wilderness and what passes for civilization--are probably just as important.
Last edited:
Stormborn-- you hit the nail on the head.
I've been an afficianado of wuxia films, comics and novels for about 30 years or so, stretching back to my Saturday afternoons watching Shaw Brothers kung fu films in the 70s.
In that time (and especially once I began my heavy research during the design of my Hong Kong Action Theatre! RPG) I noticed that most of the better wuxia stories were, essentially, transplanted Westerns, and vice-versa....for exactly the similarities you noted.
The comments I've received here have convinced me that a setting for Core D&D wouldn't really fit. The question now is whether I'd be better served by designing a true "second generation" d20 system (like Green Ronin did with M&M and True20), or by designing a new system specific to the setting.
....and yes, folks: This is intended for eventual publication, not just a home game.
I've been an afficianado of wuxia films, comics and novels for about 30 years or so, stretching back to my Saturday afternoons watching Shaw Brothers kung fu films in the 70s.
In that time (and especially once I began my heavy research during the design of my Hong Kong Action Theatre! RPG) I noticed that most of the better wuxia stories were, essentially, transplanted Westerns, and vice-versa....for exactly the similarities you noted.
The comments I've received here have convinced me that a setting for Core D&D wouldn't really fit. The question now is whether I'd be better served by designing a true "second generation" d20 system (like Green Ronin did with M&M and True20), or by designing a new system specific to the setting.
....and yes, folks: This is intended for eventual publication, not just a home game.
Similar Threads
