How far are they going with Essentials

[MerricB]

Removed until I can double-check something.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yup. No one is going to take the 'classic' 4e builds away from me;
just like no one is going to burn my vast library of 3e books.

That's a false analogy, though. My 4.0 STR cleric can make use of Warpriest powers. My 4.0 wizard can make use of Mage powers. My 4.0 Fighter can make use of Knight AND Slayer powers.

My 3.5 fighter can't use squat from 4.0 OR essentials. My 1e Magic-User can't use a Mage feat without some extensive reverse-engineering.

But that's not really to the central point, either.

All new products will include material that is supportive of Essentials builds. Sure, _some_ of the material will also be useful for 'classic' builds, but the trend is already apparent in DDI content.

By my measuring stick, a large part of those books are useful for 'classic' builds.

More so than Martial Power 2 was useful for my Druid, anyway.

I will never see a new official ritual because in Essentials there aren't any!

That's a bit like saying "4e DOESN'T HAVE GNOMES OR HALF-ORCS!"

What makes you think Essentials will never have rituals?

Instead of the sudden death of 4e that would have been caused by releasing a new edition we get a slow, but no less lethal poisoning of the game by the insidious process of 'Essentialization'.

Except your new 4.0 characters can still make use of a significant chunk of these new options...

It's not a big problem, though. We have only just started playing 4e, really. It's going to take us plenty of time to use just a tiny fraction of the material that has already been released for classic 4e. Chances are, 5e will come out before we get bored with the options already available.

Ah, well, if the problem is that the millionaire is upest that the money-faucets got turned off, or the glutton is angry because the free buffet is over, I can't possess a lot of sympathy.

And my money will simply go somewhere else, like board games or new rpg systems from other publishers.

That's all well and good, but I still don't get why Essentials is a bad thing for you.

 

[Incenjucar]

They have revised rituals for Essentials/Post-Essentials. However, the book they were to be in was canceled, so they'll most likely place them in Dragon.



I really do wish individuals would try to ask questions before making statements about topics they have not researched. It would reduce a lot of the hysterics that fan cultures go through.

 

[drothgery]

That's a bit like saying "4e DOESN'T HAVE GNOMES OR HALF-ORCS!"

What makes you think Essentials will never have rituals?

... because WotC said Essentials was ten products that have all been released and that's it? They might very well release an Essentials-style book with rituals, or Dragon article with the Essentials logo with rituals, but that's not the same thing.

 

[I'm A Banana]

... because WotC said Essentials was ten products that have all been released and that's it? They might very well release an Essentials-style book with rituals, or Dragon article with the Essentials logo with rituals, but that's not the same thing.

I'm confused. Is Essentials already over, or is it taking over every future release like some sort of cancer?

Jhaelen seems to think the latter, but here I'm being told it's the former.

It certainly can't be both over with and everything going forward.

Heoroes of Shadow is said to be Essentials, but that can't be "the same thing" if Essentials is already over.

Perhaps WotC hasn't been clear on it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm really confused by this, because the rules for rituals are in the (essentials) Rules Compendium.

Cheers!

This is not true. There is a sidebar that says basically "there are these ritual thingies, we don't talk about them in this book." There aren't even general rules for mastering rituals, how you cast them, how to make a scroll, etc. in any Essentials book.

You realize that Essentials builds are compatible with pre-essnentials classes? That they can play alongside each other? That E-classes can make use of non-E powers and feats, and that non-E classes can make use of E powers and feats? That the Blackguard can swap out certain Paladin powers, and that the Paladin can swap out certain Blackguard powers? That they can both take the (usually quite solid) Essentials feats?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that HoS is going to contain feats and powers.

There should be no reason your current characters shouldn't be able to make use of at least some of them.

Again, the point is being somewhat missed. Lets say there is an option for some sort of Thief build with shadow stuff attached to it, that isn't going to work with my PHB1 rogue. Sure, MAYBE I can take some feat, MAYBE I can take some power, but if I want to actually use the entire option I MUST take the simplified Thief and not the PHB1 rogue that I like to play. Wizard vs Mage is no difference, so big deal that the Necromancer has to be a Mage, I can use 99.9% of the same stuff as any other Wizard. With the Martial classes there is a much bigger difference and I might well legitimately want to play a shadow rogue vs a shadow thief.

Anyway, I'm more explaining what irks some people than making a big complaint. I mostly DM anyway. There are plenty of characters I could play that would be fun. I will however be happier if the classic 4e classes have as many options in HoS as the Essentials ones do.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Sure, MAYBE I can take some feat, MAYBE I can take some power, but if I want to actually use the entire option I MUST take the simplified Thief and not the PHB1 rogue that I like to play.

But if you're already playing an Artful Dodger, and enjoying it, why would you want to use the entire option? Why wouldn't you just pick and choose the powers and feats that work with what you already enjoy?

 

[MerricB]

Perhaps WotC hasn't been clear on it.

I think Wizards have been moderately clear on it, but people are distorting the facts to make their own points. What has confused the issue is the future plans of Wizards, which have been changing recently.

Here's the easy one: What is D&D Essentials?

The answer is this: ten products that stores selling D&D should always have in stock, which provide all (most) of the material needed to play a D&D game. The ten products are
* D&D Starter Set (Red Box)
* Heroes of the Fallen Lands
* Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms
* Dungeon Master's Kit
* D&D Rules Compendium
* Monster Vault
* D&D Dice
* D&D Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The Dungeon
* D&D Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The Wilderness
* D&D Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The City

So, that's the D&D Essentials line in its totality.

However, that's not what most people are debating. What they're debating is the D&D Essentials Design Precepts. You see, while there won't be any more D&D Essentials-branded products, there will be products that contain material that corresponds to the designs used in Essentials. The doomsayers believe that there will never be any support of the older PHB1-3 material, it'll only be for the "Essential"-type classes.

What the heck are the D&D Essentials Design Precepts? Well, it's a heading I've just invented to describe the difference between pre-Essentials 4E design and post-Essentials 4E design. And basically it boils down to this: It is okay to design classes that don't all correspond to the strict feat/encounter power/at-will power/daily power progression first seen in the Player's Handbook.

In actual fact, you can find the first example of this in PH3 with the psionic classes which replace encounter powers with the augmentable at-will powers. Essentials just takes it further: it's okay to have a fighter class that doesn't have daily powers, instead it gains class features. It's okay to have a fighter class that doesn't have lots of encounter powers, instead it just gains additional uses of its sole encounter power.

This is actually pretty liberating design, but it doesn't come without its pitfalls. Most obviously, if you play a Slayer (one of the Essentials versions of the fighter) and pick up Martial Power, although you can use many of the feats and utility powers, the encounter and daily powers in that book are useless for you. It also has implications with multiclassing for a similar reason: the classes aren't all built on the same structure any more. (Well, this was true of PH3 psionic classes too).

The big question going forward is this: Will Wizards only support the Essentials Classes in the future? That's the big unknown. I take it as given that future classes will be more free in how they approach their feat/power structure (and thus might be termed as "essentialized", but I consider it quite unlikely that Wizards will *only* support those classes in D&D Essentials. They've got a lot of players who don't restrict themselves to Essentials. It's a pretty good way into the game, but it isn't the entirety of the game.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

This is not true. There is a sidebar that says basically "there are these ritual thingies, we don't talk about them in this book." There aren't even general rules for mastering rituals, how you cast them, how to make a scroll, etc. in any Essentials book.

My memory must be going then. Thank you!

Cheers!

 

[The Little Raven]

Perhaps WotC hasn't been clear on it.

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Coming This Fall ...)

They were pretty upfront about what comprised the Essentials line in total. People on here assumed because other books were planned for trade paperback format they were were immediately Essentials products.