How FAST should he turn evil? (Updated 2/9)

[Viktyr Gehrig]

To run with the ball, then, I'd say the dagger does nothing. It's a regular, masterwork dagger with a Nystul's Aura on it. After all, why spend oodles of gp and xp crafting a minor artifact soul-stealing dagger, when all you really want is for a person to make a conscious decision to send a soul to Hell? As long as that's the decision he makes, of his own free will, his own soul/alignment are negatively impacted, whether or not the soul in question actually went to Hell.

Question being: does she want his soul, or does she just want him to provide dozens of far more tractable, twisted souls for her to play with? (Or spend with.)

He's going to be killing some awfully powerful evil critters. I'm willing to bet their souls are worth more than his.

 

[Soul]

I think the notion that one act can make someone evil, to be a tad crazy. Sure you have the back story of the soul selling and such, but I think infact saying selling your soul is an evil action is a bit much. If you view the entire thing in black and white, I still do not see it as exactly evil. Lets look at this under the light of everyone is a sinner, they lie, or maybe steal, they do things that they feel migt be wrong or know are wrong, yet justify it in their own mind in one fashion or another.. its 'ok', or I won't do it again, etc.. Then that becomes the black side, and the white side becomes the struggle to not do these things, to do better, to improve yourself, and maybe even help others in the process.

Now, I can see selling the soul making the character damned. Maybe, even making it more morally flexibile. I personally think its the actions that follow, which are the deciding factor. As far as if he should go Evil after the daggers use, I think that depends on how it happens. If the player actualy murders one of these 'Evil' people, then of course I can see it causing a shift. If he happens upon one who is slaughtering innocents, or attacks him or his friends with lethal force.. then I don't see it as anything more than killing any other evil. The character still in escense furthering the cause of good. If you say hey "the guy could still be redeemed, so its still evil" you open up a huge can of worms then. Any time the players kill something with a soul for whatever reason are then being evil. If you want to use some biblical reference for this sort of thing, look no further than the story of David. He sent a woman's husband to die, so he could have his wife. Was that an evil action? I'd say yes, but did it make him utterly 'Evil'? I'd say no. Sometimes even good people do bad things, but that doesn't stop them from being good people, it just makes them human. Anyway, thats my point of view.

 

[Vaxalon]

I think the notion that one act can make someone evil, to be a tad crazy.

Why not? The way I see it, it's the character showing his "true colors".

 

[Soul]

Why not? The way I see it, it's the character showing his "true colors".

I could see that if the character was already Evil, as "showing their true colors" implies. I mean, that sort of pushes the envolope a bit, in what determines Evil. We all make lapses in Judgement, we are prone to mistakes. If it was just a matter of the character revealing its true intentions, that would mean he/she has been atleast thinking things along these lines. The notion of an "Evil" epiphany ((yes, I realize the potential oxymoron) for lack of a better term), I think is something that would be very rare, if it has ever occured. I generally don't personally believe people just suddenly become Evil, though I could maybe prescribe to the notion of some maybe being born so. Personally, as a DM I wouldn't shift any players alignment over one action, I'd let it snow ball and warn the player the path they are about to undertake. I'd use a rule of thumb of atleast 3 or 4 events before I'd shift it, though thats just me.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Lets take a bit of a look at the facts
1) The character lost his soul(1) through a stupid mistake. This act isn't evil.

2) The character's soul(1) is (basically) being held to ransom

3) Killing evil creatures is not an evil act.

4) The souls(2) to a demon anyway.

So - the net gain for evil from this is nil (ie - the evil souls would go to hell anyway).

The net gain for good is... slightly positive (ie - evil is moving from somewhere that it can do a lot of harm(the world) to somewhere it can do significantly less harm(hell)).

I'd say... don't change his alignment, but DO have some other powerful demons hassle him for stealing powerful souls that were rightfully theirs.

 

[Rel]

Lets take a bit of a look at the facts
1) The character lost his soul(1) through a stupid mistake. This act isn't evil.

2) The character's soul(1) is (basically) being held to ransom

3) Killing evil creatures is not an evil act.

4) The souls(2) to a demon anyway.

So - the net gain for evil from this is nil (ie - the evil souls would go to hell anyway).

The net gain for good is... slightly positive (ie - evil is moving from somewhere that it can do a lot of harm(the world) to somewhere it can do significantly less harm(hell)).

I'd say... don't change his alignment, but DO have some other powerful demons hassle him for stealing powerful souls that were rightfully theirs.

I largely agree with your breakdown above. But I think you may be discounting the fact that these souls he's sacrificing are going to be traded in to a devil lord for the express purpose of activating a gate that the Erinyes can use to access the Prime Material Plane. She probably doesn't have nice intentions after that.

As I said before, I doubt he's going to back away from sending her the souls anyway. I'll know in about 24 hours and I'll post the results so you know how it panned out.

 

[Soul]

I largely agree with your breakdown above. But I think you may be discounting the fact that these souls he's sacrificing are going to be traded in to a devil lord for the express purpose of activating a gate that the Erinyes can use to access the Prime Material Plane. She probably doesn't have nice intentions after that.

As I said before, I doubt he's going to back away from sending her the souls anyway. I'll know in about 24 hours and I'll post the results so you know how it panned out.

I don't think the fact of what she does with the Souls counts. I mean, thats sort of like saying smoking funds terrorism, so everyone who smokes is Evil because they fund terrorists (A bit extremist I know). Again though, thats just my thoughts. I just think what her intentions are, shouldn't neccesarly tie into the players choices.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Question being: does she want his soul, or does she just want him to provide dozens of far more tractable, twisted souls for her to play with? (Or spend with.)

He's going to be killing some awfully powerful evil critters. I'm willing to bet their souls are worth more than his.

Perhaps... But perhaps the soul of somebody who made deliberate choices to travel from good to evil is worth more than those who were sent totally against their will. If corruption of good is the goal, not destruction of good, which way moves the devils closer to their goal?

 

[evileeyore]

I've settled on the idea that the character is not yet Evil. He did not willingly sign over his soul to the Erinyes (and if I decide to pursue Merak's idea he may not have sold it at all). His sin there was that he gave into temptation with a known seducer and put himself in a compromising position that led to his compulsion to sell his soul. This is somewhere between evil and stupid. He then agreed to an arrangement by which he can regain his soul by sending other souls to this devil. The agreement itself is evil.

BUT, I don't think those two relatively minor transgressions are enough to turn him Evil yet. It's going to take until the first time he uses the dagger on someone to make that transition (but it will happen immediately instead of being a "slow slide" as I was originally thinking).

Personally I really like Merak's idea, and I think it would be even juicier taken one step further.

After having sacrificed* enough souls to 'redeem' his, have a meeting between him and the Erinyes. She tells him he did well and now deserves a reward. The reward being the ability to buy back his soul. You see he never really sold it to her in the first place, but after turning so delicouisly evil it did become destined to Hell and some Devils pocketbook. The Erinye had to hussle hard and use some of that soul-currency he was reaping for her, but now she owns it. And is willing to let him buy it back...


That is how true Evil would work it...

* I would definitly only allow sacrificed victims to count. Anyone killed in the heat of battle or just knifed in the street would not count. Also the Character should be able to feel the victim's life force pass through him whenever a sacrifice is made. Maybe even becoming somewhat addictive as time goes on...


TTFN

EvilE

 

[Norfleet]

The bigger question is one that people are missing out on: Let's suppose that you've picked an arbitrary point at which you're going to declare him to be evil.

What does that *MEAN* for him? So he's evil now....is some dramatic transformation supposed to overtake him? Has he dramatically transformed in any way? If not, are you sure he wasn't ALWAYS "evil", and the originally printed alignment on his character sheet was simply an error? He's not a paladin: Alignment is mostly a non-issue. If you declare him evil, is he suddenly supposed to become a psychotic axe murderer? Does he REALLY change, just because you've decided to label him evil? I think that the answer to the above is a simple "No".

And so the answer to the above question, "How fast should he turn evil", is "it doesn't matter". His alignment is largely irrelevant until the moment something checks for it: At that point, THEN you can look at what he's done so far, and ask yourself, "Is he evil?". It's not WHEN he BECOMES evil, it's IF he *IS* evil when something actually looks. Until then, the cat is both dead and alive.