How Gary Gygax lost control of D&D

[sgtscott658]

That is correct.

1989, actually.

P.S.
Is that Chuikov of the 62nd Army (8th Guard Army after Stalingrad)?

 

[Dungeoneer]

Interesting, 1st edition was around for 10 years (1975 to 1985)

Was it? "1st edition" encompassed 0D&D, 'Basic', AD&D and BECMI, four versions of the game with very different rules. It's a little disingenuous to argue that they weren't releasing new 'editions' of the game constantly during that period. They just weren't named as such.

 

[wedgeski]

Interesting, 1st edition was around for 10 years (1975 to 1985), 2nd edition lasted around 11 years, then 3.0 lasted 2 years, 3.5 4 years and 4.0 lasted around 2 years. Basically we went from a hobby company to a corporate publisher.

You consider 3 and 3.5 different but not Basic and AD&D??

 

[evileeyore]

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.. it doesn't appear you are

I am completely serious in my humour over your usage of phrase.

If you want to scoff at the principle instigator of the modern roleplaying game then have at it but I really cant understand why.

I'm scoffing at "that the world couldn't handle". Hint: The world handled him just fine, Mr. Gygax couldn't handle the world, that is why he lost the company he never actually owned.

That he and Arneson kicked off the modern concept of roleplaying games I'm perfectly behind*. That it wouldn't have happened without them I do scoff at, but that's a separate conversation.


* I actually credit a few different sources, but won't argue that Gary and Dave's contributions (D&D in particular) are the structure upon which tabletop RPGs have been built.

 

[Mark CMG]

In the early 70s, I used to pick up my Avalon Hill games (and, later, SPI games) at any number of mainstream department stores (Sears, Woolworth, etc.) if I couldn't get it at a Hobby Shop.

As a followup, I started a thread on Board Game Geek and have found a good number of folks expounding on where they got their games in the 1970s. I also asked the question on a dozen Facebook groups but I won't link to those as there might be some overlap. The number of places that aren't Hobby Shops doesn't astound me but the diversity of them does a bit. One guy mentions a pharmacy. Many bookstores, some mainstream, some not, are included. There are also lots of toy stores mentioned, some large chains, some regional, and some ma & pa toy stores. Quite a bit of diversity, indeed.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1210483/1970s-wargame-availability/page/1

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

In this day and age where all WOTC do is bring out a homebrew version of an already established game system, they arent likely to wow many people.

Pathfinder is an example of someone who did things write. They took an old system and didnt change things that much but have kept a successful product

Wait...so WOTC comes out with a fairly large overhaul to an existing game: 3.0e. Then they revise it slightly: 3.5e. However, this doesn't "wow many
people" since it is a homebrew version of an already established game system.

But then Paizo takes the same system and makes slight changes to it and it is suddenly the right way to do things? How is Pathfinder any less a "homebrew version of an already established game system"?

 

[wlmartin]

Wait...so WOTC comes out with a fairly large overhaul to an existing game: 3.0e. Then they revise it slightly: 3.5e. However, this doesn't "wow many
people" since it is a homebrew version of an already established game system.

But then Paizo takes the same system and makes slight changes to it and it is suddenly the right way to do things? How is Pathfinder any less a "homebrew version of an already established game system"?

You have made my point for me

Paizo realized that 3.5 wasn't worth giving up on and they have continued to support it through an open license method (which is basically 3.5 D&D without some monsters and some spell names changed and some small rules changes and a different take on certain classes/races)

They managed to make a homebrew 3.5 and make money out of it, meanwhile WOTC pushed 4e, it failed, they are now trying to back pedal and get a revised 3e/3.5e running with 5e


The crux of my point is that WOTC could have done this, kept fans happy and made money.
Instead they wanted to push their minis and develop their boardgame (aka hasbro influence play) business


D&D didnt need to change, it worked perfectly fine with just some tuning and this is all proved by reverting back to a rebadged 3.5 system with revisions

 

[Sacrosanct]

You have made my point for me

Paizo realized that 3.5 wasn't worth giving up on and they have continued to support it through an open license method (which is basically 3.5 D&D without some monsters and some spell names changed and some small rules changes and a different take on certain classes/races)

They managed to make a homebrew 3.5 and make money out of it, meanwhile WOTC pushed 4e, it failed, they are now trying to back pedal and get a revised 3e/3.5e running with 5e


The crux of my point is that WOTC could have done this, kept fans happy and made money.
Instead they wanted to push their minis and develop their boardgame (aka hasbro influence play) business


D&D didnt need to change, it worked perfectly fine with just some tuning and this is all proved by reverting back to a rebadged 3.5 system with revisions

Um...5e doesn't feel at all like 3e to me, which your posts seems to imply that it's just a tweaked version of it.

 

[wlmartin]

Um...5e doesn't feel at all like 3e to me, which your posts seems to imply that it's just a tweaked version of it.

Perhaps that is my perception of it
It just doesnt feel like a new game. I feel like ive played it before

At least one thing will be good, any content they create for it should be translatable to other editions

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Paizo realized that 3.5 wasn't worth giving up on and they have continued to support it through an open license method (which is basically 3.5 D&D without some monsters and some spell names changed and some small rules changes and a different take on certain classes/races)

They managed to make a homebrew 3.5 and make money out of it, meanwhile WOTC pushed 4e, it failed, they are now trying to back pedal and get a revised 3e/3.5e running with 5e

So, all you are saying is "I liked the changes Paizo made. I don't like the changes WOTC made."

Originally you said that WOTC just made a homebrew of an existing system which is why no one was excited about it. You just said Paizo made a homebrew of an existing system and that's why they succeeded.

I don't think it's about whether something is a "homebrew of an existing system" or not. WOTC just made some changes to the game that some people don't like.

The crux of my point is that WOTC could have done this, kept fans happy and made money.
Instead they wanted to push their minis and develop their boardgame (aka hasbro influence play) business

This isn't true at all. They made the changes they did at the encouragement of a large group of their players. A group I was part of which mostly consisted of Living Greyhawk players, convention players, and people who liked standardization and were tired of the lack of balance in 3.5e

You miss the part where a large number of fans DID like 4e and it sold pretty well. I understand that you like Paizo and Pathfinder. However, saying that WOTC made a huge mistake by changing the game at all simply isn't true. Things need to change from time to time. It's always best to strive to make things better. Even if you fail now and then.

D&D didnt need to change, it worked perfectly fine with just some tuning and this is all proved by reverting back to a rebadged 3.5 system with revisions

Edition warring aside, different people like different things. Whether D&D needed to change or not is heavily based on opinion.

However, 5e is not a rebadged 3.5 system by any means. It shares almost an equal number of things in common with 2e as it does with 3.5e. If anything, this is a game that went back to 2e and iterated from there while using some good ideas from 3.5e(feats, multiclassing, and attack bonuses going up) and some good ideas from 4e("Healing Surges", Encounter powers, balanced monster math), with a bunch of its own innovations.

This isn't a system designed to bring back people who liked 3.5e. It's a system for people who felt D&D kind of got off track in both 3.5e AND 4e.