How have you used terrain to make combat more tactically interesting & exciting?

[Nail]

So: How could the terrain have been more tactically interesting and exciting?

• The first thing might be monster placement. The monsters were on us immediately, and from all directions, meaning there was little point or opportunity to take advantage of all of the cool terrain. Having them spend time moving, and coming in more widely spaced waves would allow the PCs time to move themselves.

As a DM, I think it's almost instinctive to get your monsters in there fast and get them working. Because any amount of time they're doddling, that's basically time they're dieing without being useful.

Hmmm.

As a DM myself, I understand the sentiment....but I think you may be missing my point.

Allowing the PCs time to react to the surroundings makes the surroundings more meaningful. If the monsters start right on top of the PCs, terrain matters lots less => you might as well have a featureless and square room.

 

[Spatula]

I think that if you're going to give the groups time to maneuver before engangement, the key might be to give your monsters cover and/or concealment so they can't be blown up before the engagement happens.

 

[Nail]

Sure.

No tight grouping for the monsters works wonders.

....and hey: it's alright for the monsters t' get blown up once in a while.

 

[DrSpunj]

So: How could the terrain have been more tactically interesting and exciting?

• The first thing might be monster placement. The monsters were on us immediately, and from all directions, meaning there was little point or opportunity to take advantage of all of the cool terrain. Having them spend time moving, and coming in more widely spaced waves would allow the PCs time to move themselves.

With enough mobs this is definitely doable, but remember the DM is a bit constrained to do much of this given the XP budget. There's essentially 1 mob for each PC of an equal level in a Standard encounter, up to twice that for Hard. Sure you can turn one or more of those Standard mobs into Minions to create waves (which I did in the Skeleton/Zombie battle) but they don't last long and I haven't figured out the balance between enough that they don't all die before any 1 of them actually hits vs so many that the party gets overwhelmed, even in waves.

Still your point is a good one, and looking back the initial goblin encounter in the ruins was set up this way, and the goblin/fire beetle encounter in the underground caves allowed the party a few rounds to split up and "take the fight" to them. As I said, a variety of battles & situations is my goal and dumping the party occasionally into a really disadvantageous position keeps things interesting, and hopefully fun!

• The second thing might be putting obvious "PC changable" terrain elements. Climbing the cliffs was difficult because they were so loose...might it be possible to cause them to collapse instead, bringing the artillery down to us? PCs often need clear hints that this sort of stuff would work.

Two things:
1) that would've been awesome and I would've loved to have you or someone else suggest it!
2) I'm just not that good that as the DM I can think of all the cool stuff that players might or could do and give all kinds of hints or even spell everything out for them. IMO players have to help think outside the box, perhaps even more than the DM, and see what they can do to turn nearby terrain to their advantage. With beginning players sure you need to spell it out and/or drop hints, but veterans? Really?

• The third thing might be putting a reachable non-melee goal into the fight. The monsters that attacked us burrowed out of the ground....maybe their lair entrance is obvious and nearby, with some dry underbrush around it, just begging to be lit? Or maybe there is a stone mesa nearby to retreat to? Or perhaps one of the controller beasts has a jeweled collar on, that if removed quells all of the beasts? Etc.

Actually, once the Controller Spitting Kruthik was killed the others would've fled back to their nearby lair and been easy to kill, essentially ending the encounter. I hinted as much to Analyn with her successful Nature check at the beginning of the fight (describing a new hive as having a "pseudo-queen bee") but the party didn't focus fire on the Controller up on the bluff so that potential outcome wasn't, uh, explored by the party.

Bottom Line: Maybe "dynamic 4e terrain" is different than "monsters have even more advantages than they did before".

Good point, and one I'll try to remember. Maybe you should post this in the Grindspace thread since it needs resurrecting and would be good for most any DM to keep in mind.

 

[Nail]

(For those of you following along at home, the following is the player talking to his DM. My intent is to "think out loud", rather than "be obnoxious". )

With enough mobs this is definitely doable, but remember the DM is a bit constrained to do much of this given the XP budget.

True. Of course, if the encounter is in waves - with some expectation that some monsters won't even "make it to the party" - the XP budget could be the same while the number of Bad Guys is larger.

...looking back the initial goblin encounter in the ruins was set up this way....

True! I'm just thinking about movement and position here: in that first fight, movement mattered much more. For me at least, that made it more fun. YMMV!!

I'm just not that good that as the DM I can think of all the cool stuff that players might or could do and give all kinds of hints or even spell everything out for them. IMO players have to help think outside the box, perhaps even more than the DM, and see what they can do to turn nearby terrain to their advantage. With beginning players sure you need to spell it out and/or drop hints, but veterans? Really?

The issue is familiarity.

Since we (the players) don't know how the world works just yet, we don't know what options are open to us. Even experienced gamers have this obstacle, although (admittedly) it's smaller than for newbies.

Actually, once the Controller Spitting Kruthik was killed the others would've fled back to their nearby lair and been easy to kill, essentially ending the encounter.

That hint (pardon me for saying so) wasn't all that obvious.

Moreover, to get to the "queen" we needed to get through the soldiers and minions, then climb a cliff with a difficult Athletics (thus Str) DC. It's neither practical nor smart to disengage the melee types once they were pressed close in on us, and doing so while trying to climb seemed....sub-optimal.

...but all of that is Monday-morning QB-ing. The point is that we either didn't have or didn't know about other "dynamic terrain" options.

And FWIW, it's cool to have combats were the only option is to stand there and take it. "Hold your ground you yellow-bellied maggots! Stand there and take it, and give back worse than you get! You don't get to die until I see ten of them bleeding at yer feet!" I think everyone agrees about that. I'm just "thinking out loud" 'bout how to give PCs "dynamic terrain" options, and what might make that easier.

 

[jcayer]

So far the encounter I've been most proud of was a malfunctioning lighthouse. Around the outside of the room, a ramp headed up to the top level. In the center of the room was a 2x2 fire fountain. Entering any square next to it caused damage. One square off each corner, was a 1x1 feeder. Every round, a random feeder would go off, doing fire damage to anyone adjacent to it. I filled the room with magma monsters. It was an excellent battle.

Another thing that is worth mentioning is taking away what the players do well. My players are very tactically sound, however, when I threw a Wrathborn(Open Grave) at them and he kept immobilizing many of them, they were having serious problems dealing with the encounter since they couldn't get into position.

The last encounter I want to mention happened early in our campaign, but they still talk about it. I put them in a small town under siege. When the gates crashed open early one morning and the monsters filed in, they went into action. It was a basic city street setup and I just kept piling on the monsters. Mostly minions, but a few others for flavor. Late in the encounter, the monsters broke through the wall and a band of them came in from another direction. It was their first real chance to have fun smashing a ton of minions and they really enjoyed it.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Encounter began with the PCs in the proverbial sewer. Eventually the tunnel starts to slope downward and gets deeper with....sewer stuff. PCs have to make Acrobatics or Athletics checks to remain standing. Those that fail are taken for a slip-n-slide ride downhill.

Eventually the sewer dumps out on a hillside where the PCs go for a further slip-n-slide ending in a mini bog of poo. Difficult terrain.

Hiding in the bog of poo are two otyughs. Just ouside the otyughs range are 3 carrion crawlers. The crawlers only will come into the otyughs range to grab unprotected bits of food, like hyenas.

The terrain was interesting not in providing tons of combat options, but just in that it worked really well to put the PCs right in the thick of the action in an unfortunate stance and provided several kinds of danger layered to make the PCs make hard decisions (Do I stand in amongst the otyughs or try to do a blockade run past the crawlers? Is anyone coming with me? How about Steve the Paladin who has been grabbed?)

DS