How helpful is blindsense?

[javcs]

Within reason, I agree, but, it should take substantial effort to do so.
Blindsense requires line of effect, so, if a PC can come up with a way to sneak up on a dragon staying out of it's LoE, then sure, I'll go for it, but, just moving silently towards it in the open, come up with a better idea.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

And then the dragon with its massive fort saves laughs at your foolish attempt and eats you

Are you kidding? It's an automatic crit, plus sneak attack damage, and the DC is 10+damage dealt. Dragon saves are huge, but CdG DCs are astronomical.

1st-level PC with 16 Str and +1 scythe (magical to beat the DR): 8d4+20 = mean damage 40, save DC 50, great red wyrm needs to roll an 18. Give the PC 18 Str, or make them a rogue, and the dragon needs a 20.

This is why dragons were given immunity to Sleep and Paralysis effects.

 

[Jhulae]

Are you kidding? It's an automatic crit, plus sneak attack damage, and the DC is 10+damage dealt. Dragon saves are huge, but CdG DCs are astronomical.

1st-level PC with 16 Str and +1 scythe (magical to beat the DR): 8d4+20 = mean damage 40, save DC 50, great red wyrm needs to roll an 18. Give the PC 18 Str, or make them a rogue, and the dragon needs a 20.

This is why dragons were given immunity to Sleep and Paralysis effects.

Because all 1st level PCs wield +1 scythes. And are able to find a dragon's lair. Without getting killed on the way by a random encounter (especially in FR.. just look at the hill/mountain encounters). Or getting killed by what other things a dragon has guarding it's lair (Iron Golems in a Red's, anyone?).

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Because all 1st level PCs wield +1 scythes. And are able to find a dragon's lair. Without getting killed on the way by a random encounter (especially in FR.. just look at the hill/mountain encounters). Or getting killed by what other things a dragon has guarding it's lair (Iron Golems in a Red's, anyone?).

Irrelevant. Look at the post I was responding to. The point was that a dragon's high Fortitude save is NOT going to save it from a CdG. Hidden lair, random encounters, traps, allies, etc., might, but the Fort save won't.

A pick works nearly as well as a scythe. x3 crit weapons aren't as good, but nearly all parties have more than one of those. The +1 weapon is easy, Magic Weapon spell is a 1st-level spell. So, presuming a sleeping dragon that can be snuck up upon for a round of free attacks (as in earlier editions), that dragon would be dead.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Within reason, I agree, but, it should take substantial effort to do so.
Blindsense requires line of effect, so, if a PC can come up with a way to sneak up on a dragon staying out of it's LoE, then sure, I'll go for it, but, just moving silently towards it in the open, come up with a better idea.

Carry a tower shield, and sneak up using it for cover.

You're right, twisting the RAW is fun.

Did the editors fail English, or what?

 

[Darklone]

Hmm. Dragons in my games are more careful than that. They won't rely only on blindsense and their own senses. Get traps and henchmen casting alarm spells for you.

 

[Boondoggle]

There's a great tradition of sneaking up on sleeping dragons. The tricky part is getting to the sleeping dragon. If the dragon was dumb enough to allow itself to be easily snuck upon, it would most likely already be deceased.

I would negate the -10 penalty to listen for a sleeping creature with blindsense, but I would still make it succeed a listen check to wake.

 

[SorvahrSpahr]

^^ I agree with removing the -10 penalty for blindsense. in my campaigns if something/someone has blindsense it's because he is more perceptive of things arond him, so he should have an advantage when sleeping

 

[Kmart Kommando]

It would really depend on what senses are being used to get the blindsense. A sleeping bat isn't using his echolocation, ditto for a dolphin (actually, I don't think they sleep, rather they shut down half of their brain at a time), a creature using smell could pick it up in their sleep, because they are still breathing.

Spot and Listen are the only skills in the book, but there are more senses to account for.
Smell check? to smell something coming, I can do that with coming rain, many people can.
Taste check? did they poison the food? will the monkey eat the sweet fruit or the bitter fruit?
Touch check? probably covered with Search, as you're poking around, trying to find things.

Many of the realworld creatures with an exceptional sense of smell in the MM have scent, but the rules just make sniff checks automatic as well for them.

There is a precident for racial abilities and skill checks: +8 to the check and can take 10 even if threatened. This is covered in Swim and Climb, for creatures with Swim and Climb speeds.

So, an easy solution is to assume that creatures with special senses have the associated skill as a class skill and maxed-out ranks in it, +8 for racial ability. That makes your dragon with blindsense (from keen hearing) really hard to sneak up on while asleep, but the rogue who's trained for it his whole career might pull it off.
Spot and Listen are based on Wisdom, so should the rest of the senses.

For anyone who hunts, they know what it takes to keep from being smelled by their prey, and what can be done to minimize the chances. Sounds like opposed skill checks to me.

 

[qstor]

As for the golem issue, I would give the player a Spot check then a Knowledge (arcana) check to know its a golem not a statute after having a good view of it. I don't think blindsense would matter because the golem isn't invisible.

Mike