How important are fantasy races to you?

[Thunderfoot]

It depends on the setting... I've played in a D&D campaign where it was anything goes, and it worked; I've also played in a D&D campaign where the only races available to play were humans and halflings, and it rocked too.

I like to see rules available when I but a system, but that doesn't mean I will or even have to use them. Dragonborn and Tieflings are NOT player races in my campaigns...period (neither are Assimar, elemental lineage, half dragons, half vampires or mochaccino half latte half cafs, either).... It's a personal preference.

So your friend might be right about the purchase audience, but I don't think they are integral to a good setting or fantasy game.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

As far as Shadowrun, I never thought the races felt shoehorned in, any more than the magic or the cyberpunk elements were shoehorned in. The different races were just part of the setting. I liked the rising and falling magic affecting an untapped genetic variance, so that during times of high magic certain traits would be expressed (resulting in orcs, elves, etc) and during times of low magic those traits were suppressed (resulting in them becoming human. I will note that Shadowrun had more than just the standard tolkienesque races, there were variations in supplement books (I recall the cyclops and giant options), even if those in the main book were tolkienesque.

The funny thing is that with the "man meets magic and machine" thing, they've gone way past the cyberpunk fad of the late '80s early '90s. I can't think of any other cyberpunk games that are still in active production.

Without the elves and magic, there was nothing really to separate Shadowrun from CP2020 or Cyberspace. With, including how magic affected the backstory (both immediate and deep), it's still going more than 20 years later.

Brad

 

[wingsandsword]

I think the presence of fantasy races is definitely a "depends on the setting" thing.

Typical D&D world, with it's expected Tolkienesque atmosphere, you bet the standard races should be there.

Not every fantasy world would have them, and definitely not historic worlds.

I once ran a quasi-historic game set in the 12th century in a mildly magical Europe, and had a player come up to me wanting to play an Elf. I told him no elves, that elves and half-elves hadn't walked openly in the world for centuries and were little more than a myth now, at most PC's could be "fey blooded" which was mostly a roleplaying thing (negative prejudice from the highly superstitious and the Church) and some very minor bonuses. He was confused and a little angry that I was running D&D and not allowing elves or dwarves, to him it was like I was saying "no fighters" or "no thieves", and he thought that the fact the system was AD&D overruled all setting considerations on races and classes.

I think the "ruining" of Shadowrun is more that people expect/use it as a general cyberpunk RPG and setting with some mildly supernatural aspects, but the presence of fantasy races as core PC options and being prominent in the setting is big enough to conflict with that perception. The design intent seems much more to be an equal blend of futuristic cyberpunk with modern fantasy. Since you can get fantasy from D&D or a zillion other games, people often gloss over that (and since it's the most popular cyberpunk-themed games, games like Cyberpunk 2020 which are more pure cyberpunk get overlooked in the process).

I think d20 Modern was hurt, a lot, by pushing Urban Arcana so hard, which threw elves, dwarves and all the D&D cliches into a modern-day game. Why does every game, regardless of era, tech level, system or setting have to have elves, dwarves and magic? It doesn't.

 

[Ainamacar]

I want different races in a fictional setting to have a reason for being. If it works with the specific setting and subgenre, then pursue it. For RPG systems, especially those that are designed as systems first and settings second, I strongly prefer lots of races to be available, with the explicit understanding that the setting determines what races are actually present, and not the other way around. That makes homebrewing a lot easier, and the system much more flexible. Exclude away in my opinion: like in poetry, choice exclusions can lead to richness. (As does careful inclusion.)

One thing I wish for RPG systems is for the race=culture idea to largely die off. Instead, I prefer races (species really) to be limited to those aspects which are actually physically determined. Then the mechanical effects, if any, of culture are represented in separate packages that apply wholly or in part to any creature raised in that culture. This encourages multiple cultures per race (when desired) and eases the mechanical issues of "elf raised by dwarves" scenarios and other unusual backgrounds.

The degree to which race or culture determines a character's abilities is a matter of taste (this is nature vs. nurture in a fictional setting after all) but it could certainly lead to interesting places. For example, in a 4e-like system, perhaps one of the ability boosts could be from race, and the other is from culture. Consider this extremely undercooked revision of the 4e dwarf (I'm not arguing about the particular mechanics):

Dwarf (racial):
Medium size
Speed 5
Low-light vision
+2 Constitution
Cast-Iron Stomach
Encumbered Speed
Stand Your Ground

Dwarf (Cultural):
Dwarves locked in underground war with drow and duergar.
+2 Strength or +2 Wisdom
+2 Dungeoneering
+2 Endurance
Proficiency with throwing hammer and warhammer
Dwarven Resilience

Dwarf (Cultural):
Dwarven community living in a cosmopolitan surface city with a tradition of very comprehensive education.
+2 Intelligence or +2 Wisdom
+2 History
+2 Insight
May make a knowledge check vs DC ? against all creature types present at start of encounter. On success, all your attacks against that type during encounter score a critical hit on a natural roll two less than usually required.
Encounter utility: Reroll a knowledge check and keep better result

And if dwarves don't exist in that particular world, it's easy enough to say either of the two cultures above refer just as well to humans in similar situations.

 

[kitsune9]

For me, depends upon the setting.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

One thing I wish for RPG systems is for the race=culture idea to largely die off. Instead, I prefer races (species really) to be limited to those aspects which are actually physically determined.

How is a species with profound physical differences from humanity not going to have profound psychological differences as well? If anything, I would say that these cultural differences need to be deepened and reinforced rather than discarded.

I like the idea of having multiple cultural options for races, though. In general, I'm quite fond of the idea of race and class being customizable options.

 

[Ainamacar]

How is a species with profound physical differences from humanity not going to have profound psychological differences as well? If anything, I would say that these cultural differences need to be deepened and reinforced rather than discarded.

I like the idea of having multiple cultural options for races, though. In general, I'm quite fond of the idea of race and class being customizable options.

Different species absolutely could and frequently will have those profound psychological differences, and having different cultural "packages" can and should support that at least as well as existing schemes. As I see it, the problem with race=culture isn't that it fails to make different species unique (that can occur but I think it is largely orthogonal to the issue at hand), but that it hinders significant intra-species differences that can add a lot of flavor to a setting and a system.

 

[invokethehojo]

Do you think a game can have the best of both worlds? What would you think of a RPG based in a historical setting with no fantasy races, but the rules come with statistics for fantasy races and suggestions on how to include them if you wish. It could preserve the historical aspect, but make sure that it is easy to include them if you wish... or is that too wishy-washy?

 

[Razjah]

I like fantasy races, but I want them to be truly fantastic. Many games use dwarves, elves, and halflings. There is nothing inherrently wrong with these races, but in many games they are reskinned humans.

I think races should convey the campaign setting. A bizarre world will have bizarre races.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I think d20 Modern was hurt, a lot, by pushing Urban Arcana so hard, which threw elves, dwarves and all the D&D cliches into a modern-day game. Why does every game, regardless of era, tech level, system or setting have to have elves, dwarves and magic? It doesn't.

Agreed. ANYTHING else would've been great. The Shadow Chasers setting would've also been better, but really, *anything* else would've been better.

Brad