How important are item dailies, and item powers in general?

[Asmor]

I really don't like the way item dailies are handled. Most of them (not all, most) seem really weak, and I almost wonder if treating them like normal dailies wouldn't be perfectly okay (i.e. you can use as many as you want, but each only once per day). With the understanding that even if you have multiple copies of the same item, you can only use one of that item power per day just the same way that you can't have two copies of a class daily or encounter.

Similarly, I'm thinking of making my next campaign "magic light" (in the sense of absolutely no magic items). I'll just let everyone get free +x magic weapon/armor/amulet to keep the numbers in check. The main thing I'm worried about is whether the PCs would be much weaker without the other, non-mathematical bits from weapons.

Any thoughts?

 

[fba827]

Magic items in vacuum really aren't that full of "Umph" as you would think for a daily. However, by making them have less power than a PC daily power, you keep the PCs as the stars (rather than the people who are butlers carrying around powerful items).

So, yeah, I agree the powers themselves aren't that great, esp compared to PC daily powers of the same level. But, I am okay with that as it keeps focus on the PCs.


If you did the magic light thing as you describe it where they get the progression bonus built in but not the powers or properties, then, no, i don't think you would cause a huge problem (some, yes, but nothing that can't just as easily be over come).

 

[Goumindong]

The main thing I'm worried about is whether the PCs would be much weaker without the other, non-mathematical bits from weapons.

Any thoughts?

Yes, they're going to be quite underpowered.

If not simply because of the effects of daily item powers but also the bonus effects that you get from various things.

Some of the powers seem weak, but a lot are very very good. Never underestimate the effect of another saving throw or another healing surge worth of hit points per day.

 

[Mirtek]

Item dailies aren't important at all. Nothing beyond the basic plus of the item is really important (at least during heroic tier, at epic tier this will certainly change once items allow you to permanently fly or teleport whenever you would have walked before).

My character is level 9 and doesn't have a single magic item with a power, as a matter of fact he doesn't even have a single magic item with a property (due to having to select from what's offered at the end of each LFR adventure he has a plain +2 sword, a plain +2 armor and a plain +2 amulet). Yet he's not in the least less powerfull than other party members.

 

[Stalker0]

I would say that I consider the vast majority of item dailies pretty lame.

When I'm selecting gear I almost always go for something with a solid property, with the daily being just a bonus.

Now there are a few item dailies that are worth the price of admission, but its a disappointment for me in 4e that I find so many magic items completely not worth the paper they are printed on.

 

[Lauberfen]

I agree that dailies are minor. You could happily ignore the limit per milestone.

As for power level without items, to be honest the power level of a party depends so much on how it's constructed and the tactics used that you just have to feel for it over time rather than going by the books anyway. The idea of a party being under/overpowered has little value, unless there's a meaningful comparison with other parties- which in this case there wouldn't be, as they are in a separate universe.

You could even just ignore items, and not give modifiers either. All that would mean is the party would have to fight slightly less powerful opponents. Admittedly XP would start to fall behind eventually, but not within paragon tier I imagine.

In conclusion, the idea of power is very much in people's heads, as a comparison to what else is going on- for example, as soon as expertise came out, all characters created so far became relatively less powerful until they took it. However their ability to defeat threats was just the same as before.

 

[Neubert]

Asmor, I have recently made a progression for having no magic items. So instead of giving the players the items, you just give them the bonus. If you want, I can send it to you.
I still want to hand out magical items once in a while (to make them special again), so I'll need to change the progression from no magic to low magic or come up with a fancy rule like the magic threshold for monsters.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I view item dailies in the context of action economy and power economy, basically how much does a type of power give you for a certain type of action.

Many daily item powers are cheap in action, therefore they also have a weak effect. For example, those item dailies (think Flaming Sword) that you can trigger on a hit qualify for this best.
Such dailies basically improve an at-will to an encounter power, or an encounter power to a daily power. So basically, the item daily in this case is about as strong as an encounter power.
I think that makes them also about as strong as an (unaugmented by feats or paragon paths) action point, too.

If you would want to remove daily item powers entirely, you would probably want a game resource that would allow you to refresh encounter powers with the same frequency as you can trigger dailies.

So, you could introduce a "Heroic Effort" ability that a character gets as often as he has daily item powers (including milestones). If you spend a heroic effort, you recover one encounter power you have already used.

I am not sure if Encounter powers are entirely balance for this purpose, especially since characters would probably always try to recover their "best" power. So as an alternate approach:
1) Spend a Heroic Effort to gain a move action (can be used for a minor action)
2) Spend a Heroic Effort take an extra immediate action (can be used once per encounter)
3) Spend a Heroic Effort to take an opportunity action or a free action even if a condition normally forbids you to do so.
4) Spend a Heroic Effort to gain Resist Damage 5 per tier until the start of your next turn.
5) If you have dropped to 0 hit points but are not dead yet, spend a heroic effort to roll an extra death saving throw at the start of your turn. A failure does not count against your limit of failed death saves per round.

 

[Jhaelen]

I think you're underestimating the effect that multiple available item dailys can have on a combat. I'm currently away from my books, but I think there's several that can be used as 'get-out-of-jail cards' for a single round.

Generally, though, I prefer items that provide a static benefit.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think you're underestimating the effect that multiple available item dailys can have on a combat. I'm currently away from my books, but I think there's several that can be used as 'get-out-of-jail cards' for a single round.

Which would approximately make them as powerful as an encounter power...