How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[alleynbard]

No offense intended, and I apologize if I came of sounding grumpy.

I enjoyed playing Clerics in 1/2/3 edition, and I always tried to throw as many bonuses at possible at other characters. But I liked Clerics for more than their spell casting abilities. They were the city builders and always involved with what was happening in the city.

One interesting comment that was given to me was by one of the Fighters. He had always thought that my character was a useless combatant who did not contribute to the success of the party as I had few individual kills. I had missed a week, and upon my return he had realized the value of all the bonuses and protections that I gave out.

I especially liked the Status spell, because I knew where I had to give help.

I guess that I missed your concern because all the bonuses were second nature to me. The DM was a chess master, so he probably had everything processed in his mind without an afterthought.

If you don't mind me asking, what were some of your favorite characters?

No harm done. I will admit to being a bit oversensitive today, so that is certainly part of it. I would love to call truce and move on, sound good?

More often than not, I am the DM. Part of that has to do with being a control freak. The other part has to do with the fact no one else really wants to do it.

During OD&D, 1e, and 2e it was wizards. I liked the resource management aspect of the class. Changing from Vancian magic to the 4e system of powers was a bit difficult for me at first. I didn't like what I saw. But it finally "clicked" for me and I was okay.

During 3e it was paladins. Somewhere along the line I became more enamored with the idea of chivalry and nobility more than slinging spells. I like to play the "good guy" and it shows in most of my character builds. I guess I truly want to be a good and noble person so I project that through my playstyle.

I am finally getting a chance to see 4e from the other side of the screen and I am playing a bard. But I will admit I am sorely tempted by a deva invoker. That combo combines my love of spellcasters with my inclination towards noble characters. So my choice might change.

Thanks for asking, by the way.

 

[LostSoul]

What do you mean by "think more strategically"?

Make plans before rushing headlong into those stress situations where you don't have the time to cast a ritual. Do some scouting first - maybe using rituals to help - and figure out what you are likely to need to take on the opposition. Set them up using your map of the level and draw monsters to where you want them to be.

That sort of thing.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Okay, here’s an exercise for everyone! Here’s a level 19 Cleric with a Prestige Class! This is from Dungeon 136.

Sesorya Girgul CR 19
LE Medium humanoid
Libris Mortis 46
Init +3; Senses dark vision 60 ft, Listen +7, Spot +18
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Infernal
Aura desecrate 20-ft

AC 26, touch 9, flat-footed 26
HP 127 (19 HD) DR 3/-
Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +20

Spd 20 ft, fly 40 ft. (average)
Melee +18/+13/+8 +4 frost human bane Morningstar (1d8+5 plus 1d6 cold plus 2d6 vs. humans)

Base Atk +13 Grp +14
Combat Gear potion of barkskin (+5)
Special Action death touch 1 day (9d6), rebuke undead 5/day (+4, 2d6+21, 19th), summon undead 5/day

Cleric Spells (CL 18th, +12 ranged)
Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments cast and included in the stat block. Other spells are not mentioned to save space and my time.

Abilities Str 12, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 14

Special abilities and Feats not detailed in order to save more space and time.

Skills Concentration +24, Spellcraft +22, Spot +18

Items +1 frost human bane Morningstar, +3 heavy shield, adamantine full plate, cape of the mountain bank, carpet of flying (5ft by 5ft), goggles of night, periapt of Wisdom +6, phylactery of desecration, ring of invisibility, ring of mind shielding.

Now break out your PHBs and a timer and see how long it takes you to apply the buffs listed in her tactics section!

Tactics: Sesorya drinks her potion of barkskin before entering combat and casts greater spell immunity (horrid willing, power word blind, disintegrate, flesh to stone), protection from energy (fire, cold, and electricity), spell resistance, true seeing, bear’s endurance, cat’s grace, death ward, aid, shield of faith, unholy aura, divine power, prayer, and divine favor, then summons a pair of dread wraiths (this summon power is from her Prestige Class) and attacks.

For extra credit, throw a dispel magic on her from another level 19th spell caster and recalculate her stats!

Note: If need be, I can clean up and fill in the missing info on her stat block. But not now

 

[Plissken]

Prestidigitation: The best thing, flavor wise, about wizards in 4th is that Prestidigitation is an at-will power. I know a guy who, after every combat, uses Prestidigitation to clean his clothes. Tea cold? Prestidigitation. Table at the Inn dirty? Prestidigitation. Want to impress some peasant with magic? Prestidigitation.

You've gotta be kidding me.

 

[Tuft]

Prestidigitation: The best thing, flavor wise, about wizards in 4th is that Prestidigitation is an at-will power. I know a guy who, after every combat, uses Prestidigitation to clean his clothes. Tea cold? Prestidigitation. Table at the Inn dirty? Prestidigitation. Want to impress some peasant with magic? Prestidigitation.

You've gotta be kidding me.

Well, it has to be a very small table and small set of clothes, since the Prestidigitation only can clean within one cubic foot... (Perhaps he walks around in tanga shorts? )

 

[Intense_Interest]

Look, I have never found the math from any edition difficult, nor keeping track of my character's abilities. It's part of the game, all editions, and I had done it gladly.

I've had plenty of epic level 1/2/3 characters, and it was never difficult adding single digit numbers together. As someone said upthread, we were happy to be able to add more bonuses. It was not a chore.

This reminds me of a commercial for microwavable macaroni and cheese. The child that it is appealing to thought that boiling water was too difficult.

I'm pretty much the only guy speaking in the vein of finding the math "difficult", so I'll state my point:

In all honesty- for my group, at least- it is! We aren't playing with Tonka Toys between game-days either: most of us are accomplished enough in our lives to have the money to spend on this hobby. So when I say that the beer we drink inhibits our ability to do the math, it isn't because of our inability to figure the arithmetic.

We come to the table for the social interaction which the alcohol acts as a lubricant, enough that when the combat rounds start, we don't want to be sitting with bowed heads and eraser-headed pencils, and would rather be plotting round-by-round combats and joshing one another about missing a goblin.

If one is allowed to reference "dating" without linking wikipedia, the ultimate work of the stacking bonus systems is like filling out Crossword puzzles inbetween rounds of Speed Dating. Yes, there might be a market for the service, and I can promise someone here will pipe up in saying so, but the two ideas are dischordinant: the social atmosphere of table-based gaming versus the isolated work of bonus calculation.

4E works better for us, because most of the fiddly bits are single-learning applications: Dazed and Stunned at least have names and independant rules to describe them, and the round-by-round nature of these conditions enable us to learn them quickly because of their immediate application. Pretty much everyone at the table learns what Marked means after the second encounter; but on the other hand, no one remembers what the the +4 from Cats Grace goes to until you look up the page number on the Wizard's sheet (True story, we had an argument over if the Grace represented Charisma or Dexterity). As a group, we choose to use the rule-set that allowed us to skip the Crossword part, and play the Dating Game. Whoopie, indeed.

 

[Jhaelen]

For extra credit, throw a dispel magic on her from another level 19th spell caster and recalculate her stats!

Hee, hee! Yep, that's something I have to deal with in almost every encounter in my 3E campaign. It's a psionic campaign to boot and the psionic dispel is broken-good. The psion pc recently acquired the Null-Psionics Field power for even more fun.

Unless I take the time to create dual stat blocks for every enemy this is a major game stopper. Even that doesn't always help if the dispel doesn't work on everything.
And no amount of preparation can help when an enemy uses a dispel on a pc.

 

[Hereticus]

I can understand people having fun WITH a game where spells and effects modify seed variables.

But having fun BECAUSE spells and effects modify seed variables? Really? What part of that is more fun than achieving the same end result without the seed variables and cascading mathematical changes? The challenge of remembering how to do simple but memorization-intense basic algebra?

I've been playing D&D since 1980 and I've never heard of "seed variables".

Is this a spoof post?

If not, please explain what a "seed variable" is.

And what are you talking about regarding "cascading mathematical changes"?

 

[Hereticus]

Make plans before rushing headlong into those stress situations where you don't have the time to cast a ritual. Do some scouting first - maybe using rituals to help - and figure out what you are likely to need to take on the opposition. Set them up using your map of the level and draw monsters to where you want them to be.

Oh... what I've been doing all along.

The problem with my current 4.0E game is that the fighter types never want to wait. In a group of six, two fighters and a cleric always charge into battle with planning. I know this frustrates the DM too, who has made efforts not to have them killed.

I've only played in one 4.0E group, and perhaps it is a bad example of strategic patience. The group I DMed for with the Delve Nights sampler was not nearly as impulsive. If they were, they'd be dead.

 

[Hereticus]

More often than not, I am the DM. Part of that has to do with being a control freak. The other part has to do with the fact no one else really wants to do it.

Two of the groups I joined a while back used a system of rotating DMs. By its nature, the DMs routinely ceded control to others.

As DM I try to involve the other players with "world building", because I do not want to control everything, just act as referee.

Different playing styles makes the world go around.