How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

Of course, it is difficult to understand how artillery boy is taunted into the lava or off the cliff......... ;)

Which is why I wouldn't describe it as a taunt, unless we're talking...I don't know...some kind of Super Taunt.

And heck, they get a save against that, anyway. These artillery guys need to man up.
 

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Of course, it is difficult to understand how artillery boy is taunted into the lava or off the cliff.........

Doesn't work. anything that would prevent the target from reaching the fighter with a 2 square shift negates the power. For a target 3 squares away, a single patch of difficult terrain is enough to prevent the power from working.

Basically, if they can't punch the fighter after moving, they won't move. Since it's a shift, the target also chooses it's own route within the limits of the power. Hardly mind control.
 
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Doesn't work. anything that would prevent the target from reaching the fighter with a 2 square shift negates the power. For a target 3 squares away, a single patch of difficult terrain is enough to prevent the power from working.

Basically, if they can't punch the fighter after moving, they won't move. Hardly mind control.

Yeah, whoops, forgot about that little clause.

Well heck! That should put this whole issue to bed. Who's up for some Tex-Mex? :D

I might be back for more discourse later, y'all have fun.
 

Camouflage, drugs, alternate medicine. You got me on the "granting wishes" though.

Cool.

Yes, one could say that an invisibility power mimicked stealth and/or camoflauge, up to and including Predator-style armour. However, were this the case, there are rational limitations caused by the explanation that limit how the power can be used.

Likewise if a power was granted through the use of drugs or alternate medicine. Or if one could apparently grant wishes in a holodeck. Alternative explanations to "magic" all have limitations caused by the explanation used.

We could do this all day, but the fact of the matter is, the RAW deliniates no such limitations, even going so far as to indicate that an opponent can be controlled to move into lava or off a cliff.

Of course, if we change the language, and decide that "magic" means something other than its definition, we can come up with all kinds of crazy conclusions. You are, of course, free to knock yourself out coming up with whatever conclusions you like, but this is (again) more wishful thinking than accepting 4e at face value.

"All abilities are magic, and magic is available to all" isn't some kind of condemnation of the game system. It is a setup which might very well appeal to quite a large group of gamers. (It is, in some ways, superior to having to mark what type of ability every. single. ability. is, as in 3e.) It is also what makes Mallus' setting (as I understand it, at least) a perfect match for the 4e implied setting.

Knowing that this is part of the implied setting helps prospective players and DMs determine whether or not 4e is for them. It can help them shape a setting that makes use of the strengths of 4e. It can help avoid some of the disconnects that might otherwise occur. It can help point out areas where some groups might wish to houserule in order to avoid those disconnects.

Of course, YMMV.


RC
 

Not one bit, because I still don't understand why a fighter saying "come and get it" like he's in a kung fu movie automatically means he has supernatural powers of mind control to force people to come fight him in melee combat.

Depends upon the film, doesn't it?

I also think that you are confusing authorial control (author controls both Kung Fu Joe and his opponent) with a game system. This is just another form of the conflation of what the player can do within the game and character powers.


RC
 

We could do this all day, but the fact of the matter is, the RAW deliniates no such limitations, even going so far as to indicate that an opponent can be controlled to move into lava or off a cliff.

Are those limitations what you were talking about when you mentioned "meaningful distinctions" between mundane and martial abilities?

[Come and Get It can't make someone walk into lava, but Positioning Strike can (though that requires an attack vs. Will and implies a shove). Come and Get It could make someone walk through a Freezing Cloud, though, as far as I am aware...]
 

Are those limitations what you were talking about when you mentioned "meaningful distinctions" between mundane and martial abilities?

[Come and Get It can't make someone walk into lava, but Positioning Strike can (though that requires an attack vs. Will and implies a shove). Come and Get It could make someone walk through a Freezing Cloud, though, as far as I am aware...]

Thanks, LostSoul. I no longer have 4e books easily accessible, as I wasn't using them. Obviously, I am conflating these abilities.

Could anyone copy out the text on Positioning Strike?

Then we could give poor CAGI a rest.

(BTW, wouldn't one resist a push with Reflexes or Prowess rather than Will? That's what you'd do in RCFG, anyway! Will seems more like a superJedi mind trick...."This isn't the lava you think it is!")


RC
 

Good God. Why oh why didn't they just make Come and Get It require a Bluff check or an attack versus Will?

I certainly understand the concept behind the power, but I think goading enemies into rushing towards you should be handled by roleplaying and not by game mechanics.

4E did a lot of things I liked, and a few things I don't. Unfortunately some of the things I don't like are too jarring. I'm just going to ban Come and Get It and call it a day.
 

Would this be a bad time to mention that you can become invisibile or gain regeneration via Martial powers?

Positioning Strike
A false stumble and a shove place the enemy exactly where you want him.

Encounter Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon

Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.

Target: One creature

Attack: Dexterity vs. Will

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.

Artful Dodger: You slide the target a number of squares equal to your Charisma modifier.
 


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