How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[Hexmage-EN]

Would this be a bad time to mention that you can become invisibile or gain regeneration via Martial powers?

I knew there was a reason I picked those two!

The powers that grant invisibility are Rogue powers, ones similar to the Living Shadow class feature in your game, Raven.

 

[Mad Mac]

So, which is it?

Me, naturally. More specifically, forced movement rules only apply to pull, push and slide effects, and CAGI is none of those. If the creature is unable to move on it's own, the power has no effect.

Positioning Strike is a slide, which means it can be used on immobile targets but not restrained ones. Note that that the immobile condition prevents a target from moving but not from making melee or ranged attacks, casting spells, ect. Slide is basically the same as push except with more control.

The target line for Positioning Strike is creature, which means it can be used on anything, assuming you are striking with the intent to kill. (That is, it can target allies the way that Magic Missle and fireball can target allies)

 

[Raven Crowking]

The powers that grant invisibility are Rogue powers, ones similar to the Living Shadow class feature in your game, Raven.

First off, thank you for taking the time to examine my game.

Living Shadow: Once per day, a 15th level rogue can achieve an almost supernatural level of stealth. He is able to achieve this level of stealth beginning at any time when he is not observed, even for a second. It lasts until the rogue chooses to have it end, until the rogue does something that it is impossible to do stealthily, or until the rogue makes an attack – whichever comes first.

When using his Living Shadow ability, the rogue is effectively invisible and silent. He cannot be detected by any mundane means. In the event that the rogue makes an attack, surprise is determined normally at that time. The rogue is treated as having an effective Stealth skill check of 50.​

Let us note that this is an Epic ability in RCFG terms, and while it is noted as being "almost supernatural" the ability is intended to indicate that the rogue has become something more than human. 15th level RCFG characters may become minor divinities. It is only described as "almost" supernatural so as to avoid confusion with antimagic zones and spells.

Indeed, this is rather similar to saying that an ability is not supernatural "per se".

So, in effect, if you believe these abilities are like RCFG's Living Shadow ability, you are also saying that they are essentially supernatural.


RC

 

[Shroomy]

So, which is it?



Also, can you Artful Dodge or Positioning Strike your paralyzed ally? Your immobile enemy?

And, to take a page from RefinedBean, does the RAW specify that the other PCs are your allies? (I kid with this one; I am more than willing to assume that English is English unless specified otherwise, as with specific game terms!)


RC

Its forced movement (a pull), not a shift; I'm looking at the text right now in the DDI Compendium. To answer your second question, you could use positioning strike against an ally if you wanted, because it targets a creature as opposed to an enemy or ally (and these keywords pretty much mean what you think) but if you want a fellow PC to move 1 square, there's probably better ways to accomplish that goal than inflicting damage on an ally. Also, there is no "paralysis" per se in 4e, there are three mechanical conditions that can be used to model an effect like paralysis (immobilized, restrained, and stunned). You could use force movement if a target is immobilized or stunned, but not restrained

 

[Mad Mac]

The lowest level Rogue power I can find that grants invisibility is Hide in Plain Sight, which is a level 16 power. It allows a rogue who is already hidden via conventional stealth to remain invisible as long as they don't move from their hiding place.

Its forced movement (a pull), not a shift; I'm looking at the text right now in the DDI Compendium.

Ah, now I see. They did issue errata to change it from a shift to a pull. Interesting. Making it a pull makes it seem more like the Fighter is dancing around and dragging people towards him instead of just taunting.

I'm thinking they may have changed the mechanics of the power to resolve the "mind control" gripes but never updated the flavor text. Not that they've ever errated flavor text that I can think of.

 

[RefinedBean]

Of course, if we change the language, and decide that "magic" means something other than its definition, we can come up with all kinds of crazy conclusions. You are, of course, free to knock yourself out coming up with whatever conclusions you like, but this is (again) more wishful thinking than accepting 4e at face value.

RC, you seem to be treading both sides of the argument.

CaGI and other powers of that nature are by definition not magical, since they're used by Martial characters. This is per RAW.

I'm not "changing the language," I'm going by RAW. Martial characters use exploits. These exploits represent training, opportunism, what have you.

How is this wishful thinking? I'm following the rules. My Fighter motions to the Wizard to drop a fireball behind the enemies. It's a quick bluff, but they fall for it, and leap forward hastily, into the Fighter's reach. Nothing magical about that.

Again, you really have to stop inflicting your own sense of what "magic" is.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

So, in effect, if you believe these abilities are like RCFG's Living Shadow ability, you are also saying that they are essentially supernatural.


RC

Okay, sure.

 

[Intense_Interest]

I suppose invisibility, creating illusions, regeneration, and granting wishes aren't magical unless specified to be so, either.

Willfully obtuse interpretation aside, you can explain how a character with the ability to move moves. Wishes can't, because they purposefully break explanations down.

The player uses Come and Get It, the character expresses to the archer that he will gut him terribly unless he decides to face him on the field of honor. The archer charges to smack the Character with his sword (what archer doesn't carry a back-up?), and the player marks off his narrative control ability for the day.

It isn't hard to say this. It is all words, said in the same way as everything else.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I suppose invisibility, creating illusions, regeneration, and granting wishes aren't magical unless specified to be so, either.

In 3e a troll's regeneration power isn't considered magical, it's an extraordinary ability.

 

[Shroomy]

The lowest level Rogue power I can find that grants invisibility is Hide in Plain Sight, which is a level 16 power. It allows a rogue who is already hidden via conventional stealth to remain invisible as long as they don't move from their hiding place.

Ah, now I see. They did issue errata to change it from a shift to a pull. Interesting. Making it a pull makes it seem more like the Fighter is dancing around and dragging people towards him instead of just taunting.

A rogue could conceivably gain a power that grants invisbility at 12th level, if they take the Master Infiltrator paragon path, but your larger point still stands, since its still a paragon-level power. The thing is, in 4e invisibility is not automatically magical; its a discreet set of mechanical effects that is put into a specific context by the fluff or other keywords (especially the power source ones). In a martial context, invisibility is an application of immense skill.

As for CAGI, in terms of rules, it makes sense to change the effect to a pull. A shift is a movement action and normally wouldn't work in this kind of context (against an enemy outside of its own term). I don't see how this makes the fluff effect that different, since the fighter is still forcing the movement.