How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[Keefe the Thief]

Hmmm, 4e as board-gamey, anti-simulationist, sharing certain traits with video games. I´ve heard that before, but i sure like to see it re-explained in 34 pages of thread by people who don´t like the edition. Even if it does not match my weekly play experience, or my experience while world-building. Lets get back to the discussion: back the, D&D was better at simulating... ?

 

[fanboy2000]

Lets get back to the discussion: back the, D&D was better at simulating... ?

...a game of Paranoia.

Happiness is mandatory.

 

[rounser]

sharing certain traits with video games.

I disagree. Video games are generally less abstract than 4E because you can see what's happening on the screen. 4E, you can't even visualise how some of the rules are manifesting. The "yawn, heard it all before" thing is a good way to dismiss an argument you have difficulty refuting, but won't work this time.

 

[Scribble]

I disagree. Video games are generally less abstract than 4E because you can see what's happening on the screen. 4E, you can't even visualise how some of the rules are manifesting.

Man... I'm glad Idon't lack an imagination.

 

[rounser]

Man... I'm glad Idon't lack an imagination.

And here's the ad hominem attacks, right on time. I think that's the bottom of the barrel for you guys, you've tried every trick in the book and just plain run out of ammo. You seem to have given up on trying to make a cohesive counterargument, but that's because you don't have a leg to stand on, so you're getting out the dirty tricks.

Here's a hint: the term you're looking for is not imagination, but "suspension of disbelief", and your game has trouble suspending it. That's because it was overlooked or undervalued in the design process, and is therefore badly designed in this way. There are IMO other ways as well, but they're off topic.

 

[Kask]

Eh, hit points and armor class have kind of a civil war era naval wargame feel don't you think?

I was thinking more along the line of your speed increasing if you move at a 45' angle relative to the game board. Like in 4.0

 

[Scribble]

And here's the ad hominem attacks, right on time. I think that's the bottom of the barrel for you guys, you've tried every trick in the book and just plain run out of ammo. I'm so sorry you can't make a cohesive argument. But that's because you don't have a leg to stand on, so you're getting out the dirty tricks.

Here's a hint: the term you're looking for is not imagination, but "suspension of disbelief", and your game has trouble suspending it. That's because it was overlooked or undervalued in the design process, and is therefore badly designed in this way. There are IMO other ways as well, but they're off topic.

Pot...

Rounser... you might say suspension of disbelief, but I have no trouble imagining ways for the powers to work- As I've said before. The rules have nothing to do with it. If this is not your play style that's fine, and I'm sorry D&D no longer supports your preffered playstyle. It supports mine very well.

If you're going to make statements like "you can't even visualize how some of the rules are manifesting" then my only answer is I'm glad I have the ability to imagine/visualize them "manifesting-" as if I didn't I wouldn't be having as much fun as I'm currently having.

 

[darjr]

Here's a hint: the term you're looking for is not imagination, but "suspension of disbelief", and your game has trouble suspending it. That's because it was overlooked or undervalued in the design process, and is therefore badly designed in this way. There are IMO other ways as well, but they're off topic.

A willing suspension of disbelief is an act of will. It is a personal action of a human being. It is really to bad that you are not willing with 4e, I think that if you were you'd see what a great game it really is.

It's been said that to support someones willing suspension of disbelief a writer needs to infuse their work with "human interest and a semblance of truth", 4e has this in buckets.

The amount of infusion necessary is subjective and personal. IMHO you carry the burden of proof to show that there is some universal level that must be met in order to state your opinion of bad design as a universal fact. You have failed to do so, your arguments ring hollow.

 

[D'karr]

I was thinking more along the line of your speed increasing if you move at a 45' angle relative to the game board. Like in 4.0

Yawn...

 

[rounser]

a writer needs to infuse their work with "human interest and a semblance of truth", 4e has this in buckets.

Do you have any idea how deeply ironic a statement this is?

4E is anything but humanocentric, with bucketloads of gimmick PC races presented as non-optional. And this entire thread is about how, Houston, we have a problem with 4E being true to anything but the metagame in significant areas. Beating Gygaxian D&D for lacking verisimilitude is not "semblance of truth", more worthy of an olympic medal for self referencing irrelevancy.