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D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

Minigiant

Legend
Additionally, look at how the spells are organized. 2nd and 3rd level cleric spells in AD&D are mostly utility. A few combat, but, primarily utility spells. But the big thing is, no healing spells. You didn't have to compete between healing and utility because, well, there were no 2nd and 3rd level healing spells. And a LOT of those utility spells essentially created magic items - Create Food and Water didn't have a duration. Continual Light just worked forever. That sort of thing.

I can't be the only group that basically only saw cure light wounds prepped for 1st level spells (at least until very high levels) and then 2nd and 3rd level spells were whatever the caster wanted.


I noticed it too. It's why in my simple D&D hack, clerics only get "Create" Spells in the 2nd and 3rd levels. Druids were similar.

Only Wizards got attack spells every level.
 

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It's kind of annoying that like over 30 years the most D&D could do to make travel fun is make you spend resources not to engage with it.

Like maybe excise the tedious resource mini game and encumbrance (I get that it was the limiting factor on gold for XP, but that's gone now) and instead create some structure for exploration encounter types. And maybe an actually interesting alternative to random trash mob encounters?

My buddy essentially recreated Kingmaker for a game we're playing and a lot of hexes just have an Interesting Thing with Fallout style environmental story telling or stuff to interact with instead of pointless fights meant to force us to have our recommended violence calories per day and make us spend resources.
 

Undrave

Hero
Because that’s where the drama and conflict and tension are. That’s where there’s story. There’s no interesting story in the featureless hallway.

...so you're not actually arguing with me. Because what I literally said was, a game shouldn't be designed like this. It should be designed so that making reasonable, smart decisions--not ruthless optimization, just playing smart--contributes to fun, not pulling away from fun.
And let's not forget to think from the in-universe character's point of view: No sane person will take the dangerous maze! It might be fun for the PLAYER but the CHARACTER isn't gonna have a good time fighting for their life!! You shouldn't have to actively fight against your character's survival instinct to have fun!
4e just skipped the pretense and let you dump gold straight into magic.
And 5e let's you dump gold straight into HP with potions :p
 


I miss getting to dump gold into magic. Ready access to magic is fun, unlike treating magic like your grandma's ceramic cat collection; 'it's special because you're never allowed to do anything with it that you want'.
Absolutely. The Ritual Caster feat doesn't really replace the fact that anybody, not just people with the feat, could use a ritual scroll.

It always bothered me that it's supposed to be really hard for someone to use a spell scroll to cast magic. It makes a more fantastical world, IMO, when the fantastical is reachable but not fully knowable. Like...people casting from scrolls is both a thoroughly D&D trope (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser) and actually pretty precedented in the myths of the Medieval period and (particularly) Antiquity, where "curse tablets" and other straight-up ritual magic were frequently conducted by ordinary folk.

Hell, we have actual literary examples of common-folk believing in ritual magic literally from Ancient Rome. The Satyricon includes a section where someone tells a story about a man that performs an, ahem, adult ritual around his removed clothes, turning himself into a wolf. It's presented as something genuine, albeit a little hard to believe.

I think in the push to "make magic magical again," we've instead just made it annoying to access unless you're Pre-Approved For This Mystical Offer!
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I miss getting to dump gold into magic. Ready access to magic is fun, unlike treating magic like your grandma's ceramic cat collection; 'it's special because you're never allowed to do anything with it that you want'.
Ritual magic like the hundreds in 4e are actually more authentic to most legends and myth than the rest. There were some minor scale or psychological errors in that level 1 rituals were arguably priced out of range for level one characters
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
And let's not forget to think from the in-universe character's point of view: No sane person will take the dangerous maze!
No sane person would be an adventurer. D&D is a game about insane adventurers. They're looking for the story. The general advice of "please make an adventurer" comes to mind, i.e. please make a D&D character that's going to engage with the things D&D is about.
 

No sane person would be an adventurer. D&D is a game about insane adventurers. They're looking for the story. The general advice of "please make an adventurer" comes to mind, i.e. please make a D&D character that's going to engage with the things D&D is about.
So... we shouldn't make a bean-counter like travel in D&D demands?
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
So... we shouldn't make a bean-counter like travel in D&D demands?
Maybe older editions demanded that. 5E makes it trivial to smash that skip content button.

And there’s a difference between knowing how much food you should pack for an overland travel/camping trip and being a “bean counter”. If you don’t want to die of starvation you bring enough food to last the assumed length of the trip.
 

Maybe older editions demanded that. 5E makes it trivial to smash that skip content button.

And there’s a difference between knowing how much food you should pack for an overland travel/camping trip and being a “bean counter”. If you don’t want to die of starvation you bring enough food to last the assumed length of the trip.
That's why we have a fighter, duh.
 


Undrave

Hero
No sane person would be an adventurer. D&D is a game about insane adventurers. They're looking for the story. The general advice of "please make an adventurer" comes to mind, i.e. please make a D&D character that's going to engage with the things D&D is about.

I think that's not the same thing at all. You can be willing to take risk to accomplish a certain goal (fame, fortune, glory, helping people) and still not take additional risk on top for no payoffs! Heck, the Danger Maze will slow you down!

Adventuring is like doing extreme sports, it's all about controlling risks and working with your own limits, it's not about being a dumbass who will take risk for no reason!

An adventurer can look at a patrol of Orc and think "Oh yeah, we can TOTALLY take 'em on!" but also think "Better let the Bard put them to sleep so they don't alert their allies". That's just being sensible.
 



overgeeked

B/X Known World
And let's not forget to think from the in-universe character's point of view: No sane person will take the dangerous maze!
No sane person would go into a dungeon. No sane person would fight a dragon. Yet that's exactly what the game is about. So clearly your average D&D character isn't a sane person.
It might be fun for the PLAYER but the CHARACTER isn't gonna have a good time fighting for their life!!
You shouldn't talk about extreme sports if you're going to attack extreme sports people like that. Firefighters, police, military people. They all seem to really rather enjoy risking their lives and doing all those extreme things. D&D characters are those kinds of people. They're not armchair quarterbacks...that's literally us as players. Playing a character who's hyper-cautious is playing a character that's basically a player stand-in. PCs are adrenaline junkie who're out scouring dungeons and fighting dragons for a living. They are the D&D equivalent to extreme sports people, firefighters, police, and military. It's literally their job. That they chose to do. Instead of staying home where it's safe and warm. They choose to train up, invest in the gear, and go delve dungeons. Playing them as hyper-cautious literally goes against their character and the game's assumptions.
You shouldn't have to actively fight against your character's survival instinct to have fun!
Don't confuse your survival instinct with your characters and you'll have a lot more fun.
And 5e let's you dump gold straight into HP with potions :p
Right. So the characters live in a world were healing is cheap and plentiful. They should be less risk adverse, not more.
 



No sane person would go into a dungeon. No sane person would fight a dragon.
Define sane. People will take fairly serious risks for money or to defend their families - and we don't claim that no sane person would ever e.g. become a soldier.

The big question is more "why don't they retire?" than why start. And the simple answer is they are good at it and love the rush.
 

Undrave

Hero
You shouldn't talk about extreme sports if you're going to attack extreme sports people like that. Firefighters, police, military people. They all seem to really rather enjoy risking their lives and doing all those extreme things.
That's a ridiculous point. Firefighters train to minize risks. They don't rush into a burning building through the hardest way in for FUN! They go through the most efficient and safest route possible to save lives!

Firefighters still value their own lives and they still have to evaluate risk all the time.

Extreme sports enthusiasts still wear protective gear JUST IN CASE.

So yeah. If those tools are available IN-UNIVERSE and your character is aware of them? NOT using them would be a stupid decision on their part. Do your characters go into dark caves without a source of light because it's more fun?! No! They grab ask the Wizard to use his Light cantrip, or they grab a lantern, a torch or even a candle. If they have a Bag of Holding you better believe they'll stuff it full of rations, water and ammunition, even if you think micromanaging that stuff is more fun.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
That's a ridiculous point. Firefighters train to minize risks. They don't rush into a burning building through the hardest way in for FUN! They go through the most efficient and safest route possible to save lives!
You're mixing up two different things. Yes, they train to minimize risk on the job...and their hobbies are typically quite extreme. So for a lot of them, it's fun to feel the adrenaline rush of extreme sports. And training to survive running into a burning building doesn't preclude the adrenaline rush they get from running into a burning building. Just because they're trained to minimize risk on the job doesn't mean it's not also fun or that they don't take risks for the fun of it. Both are simultaneously true: they minimize risks on the job and take risks because they're fun on and off the job.
Firefighters still value their own lives and they still have to evaluate risk all the time.
Not enough to avoid intentionally running into a building that's on fire.
Extreme sports enthusiasts still wear protective gear JUST IN CASE.
They're also legally required to. Take a look at YouTube and all the dumb crap people get up to without safety gear. Jackass is a famous example. Extreme sports have sponsors and insurance to worry about.
So yeah. If those tools are available IN-UNIVERSE and your character is aware of them? NOT using them would be a stupid decision on their part. Do your characters go into dark caves without a source of light because it's more fun?! No! They grab ask the Wizard to use his Light cantrip, or they grab a lantern, a torch or even a candle. If they have a Bag of Holding you better believe they'll stuff it full of rations, water and ammunition, even if you think micromanaging that stuff is more fun.
You seem to be confusing things a bit. Risking your life is inherent in extreme sports. They wear protective gear to minimize accidents and because they're legally required to. But death is always a possibility. Bungee jumping, base jumping, skydiving, etc. And yes, the extreme sports people wear protective gear...kinda like how adventurers wear armor...but they still willingly, regularly, and intentionally risk their lives for fun and profit. Now. Take away the insurance companies and sponsors. What would extreme sports look like? A lot closer to Jackass and the folks on YouTube. And D&D adventurers.

And we're not talking about real life. We're talking about elfgames. The characters who are D&D adventurers are adrenaline junkies who go into dark and dangerous places to murder whatever they find there, loot the place, and haul the treasure back to town to make themselves rich. They're not well-adjusted, clear-headed, right-thinking folks. They literally risk their lives for fun and profit. That's incompatible with "taking the safest route possible".

That low INT fighter isn't going to be wearing the best armor all the time. They're going to Leeroy Jenkins a lot of monsters. Sure, they'll die. But they're also too dumb to realize how much risk is involved. Again, it's about role-playing the character. I'm willing to bet your INT is higher than the 8 INT fighter. You are aware of the risks...that fighter probably isn't. So to role-play that INT 8 fighter you can't be overly worried about the risks. That's literally metagaming.
 

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