How is modern?

[ledded]

Something else that's different about the Modern classes. This has been touched on in this discussion, but I'd like to make the point from a different angle.

The fact that your class does not pigeonhole you into an occupation/function can not be stressed enough.

How many times have you started or joined a campaign and the first question is "OK, what do we need?" How many times have you been forced to play the Cleric or Rogue just because everyone beat you to the Fighter or Wizard? The bulk of D&D campaigns seem structured to force party balance - you have to make sure you've got all your bases covered. No Rogue? Hope the Fighter's strong enough to bash down the locked door! No Cleric? Better stock up on healing potions!

Modern is quite different. We started our campaign with 5 characters: 2 Smart, 1 Tough and 2 Charismatic. Even though we had duplicates, each character was very identifiable and very few skills/talents were over- or under-represented (with the possible exception of pure combat ability ). The differences have gotten ever more pronounced as we've advanced - the Tough character is now pretty much the most advanced mage. The ability to take those six basic classes and morph them into nearly any imaginable character is what makes Modern the strongest d20 product out there.

Amen, brother, amen. My sentiments exactly.

I can't say enough how important the ability to customize your character in Modern is to people who like to roleplay. The 2 Charismatics Pierceatwork is talking about? One is an overweight country evangelical preacher, the other an african-american hard-boiled private investigator. Different professions, different skill choices (with a little crossover), totally and completely different characters.

Oh, the tough hero? A socially-inept comic book store owner/conspiracy theorist turned-modern mage. He's our best spellcaster crossed with damage sponge.

The thing is that the classes do not define who you are, only what you can do. Your choices in talents and bonus feats set you apart from the others.

 

[takyris]

I personally like that the Basic classes make it harder to fall back on them when describing yourself. You actually have to say "Joe the burly bouncer wit' a heart o' gold", because "Joe the Strong3/Tough2" just sounds goofy.

 

[Khur]

Everyone here seems to be talking about the way class mechanics work, and that is indeed an area wherein Modern shines. It's great for customizability on the level of the player and the character. The few goofs in this department (mostly feats) are really because of the way the mechanics for different forms of combat were crafted.

Where Modern fails is in those aforementioned mechanical executions that affect game play. Gunplay, by the official rules, feels stilted and unrealistic. I mean unrealistic in an unsatisfying way, not in a cinematic way. Take the artificially leveled damage of ballistic weapons in the game as one example (a .50 caliber Desert Eagle does an average of 2 points of damage more than a 9mm). Take the absurd rules for burst fire as another (you can't fire a burst without a feat ... well, okay, you can, but you won't hit anything with the extra rounds fired).

Non-lethal damage is another Modern shortcoming. Why? A character that has all of brawling feats Modern offers, and a 20 Strength, can do a maximum of 13 points of damage without a critical strike. That means anyone with a Con of 12 or less must make a Fortitude saving throw or be knocked out. Those with 13 or higher Con are unaffected by the blow. So, why would players choose to try non-lethal damage? The answer is they won't.

In d20 Modern, knocking someone out with non-lethal damage is harder than just reducing them to "dying" and then stabilizing them. That's not very cinematic, and it's not very fun. (The vitality/wound point system doesn't address this problem, either.)

Finally, the vehicle rules are serviceable, but they leave you hanging in more than one way. Having a chase between aircraft or waterborne vehicles? You're on your own. Want to know the effects of an airplane crash? No rules. But the really bad thing about the vehicle rules is the way damage to passengers is handled. Any vehicle that provides three-quarters or more cover (including most passenger cars) allows occupants to avoid all damage from a collision. Airplanes provide nine-tenths cover. You see my meaning?

Despite these things, Modern is a great game. It's worth it. There are so many great options and the types of games you can pull off with the core rulebook alone are impressive. And, like others here, I liked the possibilities the system offers the fantasy genre as well--especially a low-magic setting.

I think you'll be pleased if you play.

 

[Biohazard]

In d20 Modern, knocking someone out with non-lethal damage is harder than just reducing them to "dying" and then stabilizing them. That's not very cinematic, and it's not very fun. (The vitality/wound point system doesn't address this problem, either.)

A nice fix for this is a house rule we've used for awhile:

Nonlethal damage equal to or greater than a subject's Constitution or his current hit points requires a Fortitude save (DC 15) or the subject is rendered unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds.

So if your hit points are, say, 3, then it only takes 3 points of nonlethal damage for you to face a knockout. This makes nonlethal damage a serious part of the game (some would say too easy--which is another discussion altogether )

 

[d4]

A nice fix for this is a house rule we've used for awhile:
snip

that's a good idea. it's still pretty hard to knock someone out without seriously hurting them, though...

 

[takyris]

Another good fix we've used for awhile is looking up the rules so that you can see how Khur is overlooking a ton of viable possibilities that make nonlethal damage very workable for anyone willing to invest feats in it.

Not saying that it's perfect, but I can get a bit more than 13 through proper feat allocation.

 

[Khur]

Nonlethal damage equal to or greater than a subject's Constitution or his current hit points requires a Fortitude save (DC 15) or the subject is rendered unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds.

While your rule here is better than the "official one", and I appreciate it very much that you shared it with us, I have to agree with d4 here. This rule makes the knockout easier, but you still have to wail on someone for "real" damage for a while if they have significant hit points. Subdual damage may have been wacky, but it feels more realistic than nonlethal damage.

Not to hijack this thread, but another problem is that the rule In Modern and this one fail to take into account more serious knockouts. That is, if a person takes more or less damage, the Fortitude save should be harder or easier by the same or a related amount. Further, the amount of time someone spends unconscious should be relative to the amount of damage taken and/or the amount by which the saving throw was failed. Finally, with nonlethal damage the way it is, a character goes from "unconscious" to "just fine" in those 1d4+1 rounds.

Anyone who has ever been knocked silly by trauma knows this isn't the case. Further, it fails to allow for the cinematic knocking out of mooks and thugs. That is, it's very hard to take "ordinaries" out of the scenario permanently (like it's done in some movies) without killing them.

Now, if one said that a victim of a critical hit with a nonlethal attack had to make a saving throw (Fort DC 15) or fall unconscious, it would be even better. This solution still leaves the problem of how to deal with foes that are attacked unawares.

Another good fix we've used for awhile is looking up the rules so that you can see how Khur is overlooking a ton of viable possibilities that make nonlethal damage very workable for anyone willing to invest feats in it.

Do share, please. Obviously I'm not as skilled at min-maxing as you or those in your group, or perhaps there's been a nmisunderstanding. I'd like to see examples of this that doesn't take a high-level character to pull off. Since you say there are a ton of viable possibilities, maybe you can share more than one model. Preferably, you can give instances of how to do this without equipment, since we're really talking about fisticuffs. If you do bother to give examples, could I ask you to use average damage delivered as I did in my example, not maximum.

Just to help you out, feats that allow the brawling damage to be treated as critical (Knockout Punch/Improved Knockout Punch) don't really apply, because they're only applicable when an opponent is flat-footed. When we're talking about nonlethal damage in standup fights, this "luck of the draw" type of ability doesn't really help. Power attack can even the odds well, especially considering the +2 competence bonus to unarmed attacks from the Brawl feat tree. Once again, Power Attack is a special circumstance that cannot be relied upon, but it is more valid.

Some calculations I did go as follows: Strong Hero 5 (BAB +5), Athlete SO, Str 18, Brawl bonus feat, Other feats (and level at which they are gained): Combat Martial Arts (1), Power Attack (1), Streetfighting (2), Improved Brawl (3), Knockout Punch (4). Talents (level): Melee Smash (1), Improved Melee Smash (3), Advanced Melee Smash (5). This character does 1d8 + 1d4 + 4 Str + 3 (talents) +2 (assumed Power Attack) with a nonlethal attack, or an average of 15. This is formidable, no doubt, and my original examples did not assume Melee Smash talent or the use of Power Attack. One must admit, however, that this monster brawler is too focused for a low-level character. He's all fists and nothing else, and this lack of versatility is a problem in any campaign besides one based on Road House. This is true even if one considers that our friend can do considerable "real damage" with those burly fists--and average of 6 or so, without Power Attack. When one considers the ramifications of nonlethal damage, it gets even worse.

Thus, my whole point has been that it's not worth it to invest a litany of feats in nonlethal damage, because the rules make it easier and more rewarding for a character to just do "real" damage. Combat Martial Arts proves this, because it increases your unarmed damage, makes it so you can do real damage, and allows you to be treated as armed when unarmed. Taking Brawl instead of that is just plain foolish form a power standpoint. This is especially true when one considers the amount of time that a person is taken out of combat by a knockout blow—and average of 18 seconds. That is unless you're going to coup de grace those you knock out, but why not use real damage then as well?

Can you refute these points? Please help me out. I'd enjoy seeing how I'm wrong here, since it will make me a better player and GM. I appreciate any time you take to educate me.

Now, if Modern included an option for a nonlethal blow that puts someone out for longer, that would be really cool. Is it there and I just missed it in my poor reading of the rules? And, if we used Biohazard's house rule with the Mr. Knuckles above, he'd be really scary. No?

I will say that this discussion has warmed me a bit to nonlethal damage, but I still think it's a bit goofy.

 

[Pierce]

Not to hijack this thread, but another problem is that the rule In Modern and this one fail to take into account more serious knockouts. That is, if a person takes more or less damage, the Fortitude save should be harder or easier by the same or a related amount. Further, the amount of time someone spends unconscious should be relative to the amount of damage taken and/or the amount by which the saving throw was failed. Finally, with nonlethal damage the way it is, a character goes from "unconscious" to "just fine" in those 1d4+1 rounds.

Anyone who has ever been knocked silly by trauma knows this isn't the case. Further, it fails to allow for the cinematic knocking out of mooks and thugs. That is, it's very hard to take "ordinaries" out of the scenario permanently (like it's done in some movies) without killing them.

We use the VP/WP system in our game and have found it models non-lethal well enough. Ordinaries have no VP, so any damage they take goes straight to WP. Critical hits also go straight to WP, so a lucky shot against a heroic character has a chance to knock them out. In either case, any WP damage forces a Fort save to stay conscious. All that said, I agree that getting KOd for 1d4 rounds is a bit light. Perhaps some mechanic involving the char's CON with an allowance for an ally (or other party) to wake them up sooner via Treat Injury or shaking/slapping/water-in-the-face.

 

[takyris]

Hey Khur,

First off, apologies for being snarky. Wrote far too late at night.

Second off, you wrote:
"A character that has all of brawling feats Modern offers, and a 20 Strength, can do a maximum (emphasis Tacky's) of 13 points of damage without a critical strike."

Since I didn't see the word "average" in there anywhere, and I did see the word "maximum" in there, I did not assume that you were referring to average damage, but rather to, well, maximum damage.

My build would be pretty similar to yours. Brawl and streetfighting, with the addition of the melee smash tree and power attack -- power attack in particular is a feat that D&D veterans tend to sneer at, since it really makes secondary attacks next to useless, but since nonlethal damage is all about getting in one good hit rather than many little ones, it's an excellent feat to take. As for it not being "relied upon", I'm not sure what you mean. If I'm a Strong4 hero, max'd out in this way, and the GM is throwing lots of things at me that I can't reliably hit, then the problem is not with my feat selection. The problem is that the GM is throwing stuff at the party that is far too powerful. A Strong hero with combat feats is the epitome of hitting -- he should be able to consistently hit while power-attacking for a couple of points,

So chalk my disagreement up to one-part misunderstanding -- I didn't get that you were referring to average damage, since you specifically said "a maximum" -- and one-part glass-half-full mentality. If I can break the MDT of the average opponent about half the time, then that means that I'm either knocking them out with a single shot OR making them lose their next turn due to being Dazed on a successful save.

For a more in-depth look, I'd suggest checking some of the older threads, usually entitled "Nonlethal Damage Issues" or something like that. I build people that look basically the same as yours, and then many of us go back and forth about whether you should have to dump feats into something to be good at it (my opinion: Yes, if you want to be markedly better than other people of your level), and eventually we get into long discussions about what nonlethal damage means.

But basically, as I said, my build is close to yours. If I'm fourth level, I can force a save on an average (ordinary) guy about half the time I hit (and on heroic characters only slightly less often), which means that they're losing AT LEAST the next turn. If I don't specialize, that doesn't happen until later levels, but it's still viable.

 

[Khur]

Hey Khur, *snip* (See post above.)

DOH! You see, that's what I hate about typing stuff—it's always there, proof positive that I screwed something up! I did write maximum, even though I meant average. That's another pain—I always know what I mean! (And it isn't always what I say!) You're perfectly justified in taking maximum to mean maximum, I mean what else can you do? Apparently my brain short-circuits sometimes.

And don't worry about being "snarky", it just shows you care about the subject.

To your points, I have to agree with them, and I don't mind if I do. It suddenly all sounds superior to what I had imagined, and I find myself considering this big, bad brawler in a new light. (30 points of nonlethal damage on a critical! Sheesh!) I'm glad my little example proved your point to a great degree, because I showed myself how it works out a bit better than I thought.

I do have the disadvantage of playing D&D more than Modern (but strangely liking the majority of Modern's systems better than D&D's). But I still feel that nonlethal damage should play a more viable part of the game. Too bad dazed doesn't leave one flatfooted for that knockout punch!

All of this said, I still highly recommend Modern as a great system to the person who started this thread.

Critical hits also go straight to WP, so a lucky shot against a heroic character has a chance to knock them out. In either case, any WP damage forces a Fort save to stay conscious. All that said, I agree that getting KOd for 1d4 rounds is a bit light. Perhaps some mechanic involving the char's CON with an allowance for an ally (or other party) to wake them up sooner via Treat Injury or shaking/slapping/water-in-the-face.

This is very interesting, and a very viable option. What's the Fortitude save to stay conscious? Perhaps time down could be based on damage inflicted somehow.