Pathfinder 2E How is Pathfinder doing?

[Bravesteel25]

My whole group migrated to PF2. We played 5E for a while, but my house rules got to be too much, and PF2 fixed the 9 pages to 1
We just finished AV, 40 sessions. What a game. No deaths except in the last scene where one player became a ghost when he died, but SO many exciting and close combats. My other group is playing a custom scenario involving the Egyptian/Atlantis-type area of my world, trying to deal with a forming entity that got split into 5 personas (gods are not all-powerful in my setting, they didn't make the universe, just lv 16 to 20 avatars) and where ley-lines are appearing, threatening to tear the world apart.

Never looked back to 5E.

This is where I'm at as well. I was pretty deep into 5E for a long while, but it's warts began to show. It got to the point where I'd rather not play in my weekly D&D game at my LFGS than play 5E.* Then PF2 hit the scene and now 5E just is not even remotely palatable for me in any way shape or form.

I completely understand why D&D is the market leader, but when it comes to recruiting/finding games compared to D&D it can be a little frustrating when one is subjectively better to me.

*Edit (8/17/22): While I have my problems with 5E, it still remains the most widely available and visible game in the hobby. My scene IS 5E, so that's what I run and play. While I'd like to say that I'd rather not play than play 5E, I'd be lying if I tried to pass that off as the truth. If I'm being honest, D&D will just take the excellent stuff that PF2 is doing and work it into the next edition anyway.

 

[Retreater]

Wow. I'm just realizing how many times my opinion of Pathfinder 2e has changed since my first play.

1. First Playtest Demo at a Convention (GenCon?): Didn't care for it - thought it was too limiting
2. At-Home Playtest Demo (Doomsday Dawn): Had an overall bad experience. The adventure wasn't fun and was designed basically to try to TPK the party.
3. Second Playtest Demo at a Convention (Origins): Had a slightly better time. Maybe it was the GM, the group?
4. At-Home Adventure Path (Age of Ashes): Started out okay, but quickly showed it was too deadly for our group. Going into COVID lockdown, I had to convert the AP to Roll20 with a lot of work. Eventually the group rage quit and haven't played together since.
5. Online PFS Organized Play (TotalCon): Played 4 or so online Society games. Had a pretty good time. Decided to try the game again.
6. Online Adventure Path (Abomination Vaults): Met some new gamers online and started loading Abomination Vaults into Roll20. The group tired of the dungeon format, the "close-call" combats - stopped before reaching the end of book 1.
7. Online Beginner Box Game: Ran for my friends, and they liked it well enough to try an Adventure Path.
8. Online Adventure Path (Extinction Curse): My friends went for an Adventure Path. In less than 1.5 sessions, there was a TPK and they rage quit.
9. In-Store Organized Play: Tried to start a PFS group offering weekly games for a month. Altogether, my wife showed up for two games, two other guys showed up for the first game. Otherwise, it was DOA. (I noticed the store still had the Core Rulebook on the shelf price stamped 12/2019 - they're not moving PF2 product at all - and my PFS couldn't generate any interest.)

So I guess that means that I'm done with Pathfinder 2e? I do know I've given it more chances than I've given any other system in my 30+ years of gaming without having a "big win" (a successful campaign).
I don't have to sell D&D 5e and beg people to play it, so I guess that's the forever game system now.

 

[Philip Benz]

Please note that if you're running an AP (like AoA or EC) you don't have to run it in super-hard mode. You are free to modify things and tone down the difficulty a bit.
Also, I dunno bout you, but I always add in many RP opportunities, NPC intrigues and so on.
I've not had a single TPK since starting PF2 shortly after its release. Had one very close, one PC escaped and the other three were down & dying - but the BBEG took them prisoner, and it took like 6-7 sessions with replacement PCs to free the "captured" PCs.
Perhaps your players need to revise their strategies. Charging straight at every enemy and fighting to the death isn't always the smart thing to do. And players new to PF2 need to learn more about teamwork (applying conditions and so on), and getting the most out of their 3 actions.

 

[Retreater]

Please note that if you're running an AP (like AoA or EC) you don't have to run it in super-hard mode.

In my latest TPK (which I've discussed more in detail elsewhere) I had been giving out Hero Points to every player every hour. I dropped the monsters' AC by 3 points and the characters still couldn't reliably hit them. Yes, my players had suboptimal tactics and the dice were against them that combat, but ultimately the group isn't interested in doing a lot of work out of the game to master the game. The other option (my toning down the encounters) felt insulting to them, and they didn't want me to do it either.
So we were left with sticking with PF2, a game that made them frustrated and (some of the players at least) actively angry at me. Or we could switch to something else - which we did.
My experience with the system is that it doesn't hold up to campaign play - it's fine for a convention, one-shot, or Organized Play. I've yet to have a good campaign experience across the three I've GMed (for three different groups).

 

[kenada]

Seems like a lot of people are able to run campaigns fine in PF2. I don’t know why it doesn’t seem to mesh with you and your groups. That kind of sucks for all parties.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

By all accounts, Pathfinder 2e and Paizo are doing pretty well, one of the designers recently referred to the community as exploding in an unrelated discussion, though I don't think I could track the reddit comment down. I'm seeing a lot more people who are referencing their pathfinder 2e games on social media, and others saying they wanna check it out. We're still getting a steady stream of "converted from 5e and I have questions" posts on reddit, and NoNat's newbie oriented channel is still growing.

Most recently, we started getting major attention from largish 5e content creators annoyed that they have fans who want them to switch over, which led to a big discussion about how they fit into the possibility of the TTRPG market becoming more diverse. I'm hearing from IRL friends who are getting into Pathfinder 2e games with their formerly 5e groups that aren't me. Paizo is hiring again, as of quite recently, and while the salaries aren't stellar, "no one but WOTC actually pays better" still seems to apply. By all indications, three years in their release schedule is chugging on more-or-less undisturbed beyond covid delays and maybe a little shock from last year's drama, but there's a union now and its members are optimistic.

If I had to say, it seems like the seemingly-evergreen players from the last handful of years of DND's growth are sort of coming into their own as players, and among those (some percentage, far from all) there are people who are finding themselves frustrated with 5e's lackadaisical approach to balance, rulings, and character options and are talking their groups into switching. I mostly know this because I've seen several people explain that exact sequence of events in their posts.

Stephen of Roll For Combat I think made a good point in one of his streams with former Paizo Design Manager Mark Seifter: there are DND people, and Pathfinder people, in terms of taste for rules and balance and such, and a lot of the Pathfinder people don't know it yet. Even when that isn't the whole group, Pathfinder can make the group work a little better by helping them to stay non-disruptive through its design.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Wow. I'm just realizing how many times my opinion of Pathfinder 2e has changed since my first play.

1. First Playtest Demo at a Convention (GenCon?): Didn't care for it - thought it was too limiting
2. At-Home Playtest Demo (Doomsday Dawn): Had an overall bad experience. The adventure wasn't fun and was designed basically to try to TPK the party.
3. Second Playtest Demo at a Convention (Origins): Had a slightly better time. Maybe it was the GM, the group?
4. At-Home Adventure Path (Age of Ashes): Started out okay, but quickly showed it was too deadly for our group. Going into COVID lockdown, I had to convert the AP to Roll20 with a lot of work. Eventually the group rage quit and haven't played together since.
5. Online PFS Organized Play (TotalCon): Played 4 or so online Society games. Had a pretty good time. Decided to try the game again.
6. Online Adventure Path (Abomination Vaults): Met some new gamers online and started loading Abomination Vaults into Roll20. The group tired of the dungeon format, the "close-call" combats - stopped before reaching the end of book 1.
7. Online Beginner Box Game: Ran for my friends, and they liked it well enough to try an Adventure Path.
8. Online Adventure Path (Extinction Curse): My friends went for an Adventure Path. In less than 1.5 sessions, there was a TPK and they rage quit.
9. In-Store Organized Play: Tried to start a PFS group offering weekly games for a month. Altogether, my wife showed up for two games, two other guys showed up for the first game. Otherwise, it was DOA. (I noticed the store still had the Core Rulebook on the shelf price stamped 12/2019 - they're not moving PF2 product at all - and my PFS couldn't generate any interest.)

So I guess that means that I'm done with Pathfinder 2e? I do know I've given it more chances than I've given any other system in my 30+ years of gaming without having a "big win" (a successful campaign).
I don't have to sell D&D 5e and beg people to play it, so I guess that's the forever game system now.

Sounds like it, you can't say you didn't give it a shot.

 

[JThursby]

If I had to say, it seems like the seemingly-evergreen players from the last handful of years of DND's growth are sort of coming into their own as players, and among those (some percentage, far from all) there are people who are finding themselves frustrated with 5e's lackadaisical approach to balance, rulings, and character options and are talking their groups into switching.

Lack of magic items, or really just any use for gold at all, is one of the big sticking points in my 5e group. I also feel the lack of a skill system during play; much of the player's character sheets go unused because they have no idea how they can or should use their skills or tools, because about 99% of use cases are bespoke and requires DM input.
That's really the thing PF2e has solved for me, moreso than lack of balance or options. There are huge holes in 5e's systems that are stickied over with an I.O.U. that the DM is charged to fulfill with their time and/or money. PF2e has a functioning core set of systems that work without significant modification.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Lack of magic items, or really just any use for gold at all, is one of the big sticking points in my 5e group. I also feel the lack of a skill system during play; much of the player's character sheets go unused because they have no idea how they can or should use their skills or tools, because about 99% of use cases are bespoke and requires DM input.
That's really the thing PF2e has solved for me, moreso than lack of balance or options. There are huge holes in 5e's systems that are stickied over with an I.O.U. that the DM is charged to fulfill with their time and/or money. PF2e has a functioning core set of systems that work without significant modification.

We def felt that way too, the excitement of just being able to buy a damn flaming rune to go on my damn elven curve blade and the game not washing its hands of the quality of my experience is huge, the ability to not have to make rulings is super great too-- usually if we aren't sure of something a player can pull up nethys and have an answer within 60 seconds of the question being asked while we add a little color via roleplaying or something.

 

[Retreater]

Seems like a lot of people are able to run campaigns fine in PF2. I don’t know why it doesn’t seem to mesh with you and your groups. That kind of sucks for all parties.

Yeah. It's a bummer because I want it to work (as evidenced by my number of attempts to run the game). The online implementation on Foundry is excellent. The rules make sense, and character creation options provide a lot of variety. The APs seem interesting, and PFS organized play seems vibrant.
The baseline combats are just too difficult for the tastes of any group I've GMed, and I can't find that "sweet spot" because when I run through practice fights on my own, everything turns out fine using just simple tactics (not needing to use regularly demoralization, trips, recall knowledge, etc.)