How long does Pin last?

[KarinsDad]

Readying an action is not one of the things you can do while pinned. You can only try to break out via a grapple check or escape artist. Nothing else unless you have a special ability or feat.

Only? I know some Psions that will disagree with that. Even a Druid could Wildshape if he so desired.

Since pinning holds you immobile and Readying and Delaying are not actions which require that you be mobile, nothing in the rules prevents it.

The only thing the pin rule states is what you can do to escape the pin. It does not state that you cannot do other (typically mental) activities which do not require mobility.

In fact, any spell caster can concentrate and cast a spell for which he does not need components. It states so on page 70 under the Concentration rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Only? I know some Psions that will disagree with that. Even a Druid could Wildshape if he so desired.

Well, not necessarily.

If you are pinned, you are grappling. "Use Supernatural Ability" is not on the list of actions that can be performed while grappling... and neither, as I2k points out, are "Ready" or "Delay".

If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions.

Can I load a heavy crossbow while grappling? Can I ready a shield? Can I light a torch? Retrieve a potion from my backpack?

If not, why not?

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, not necessarily.

If you are pinned, you are grappling. "Use Supernatural Ability" is not on the list of actions that can be performed while grappling... and neither, as I2k points out, are "Ready" or "Delay".

It does not state you can use any of those abilities while pinned except casting a spell. That's an extrapolation not supported by the rules.

Pinned states that you are immobile. If you are immobile, how can you stab with your opponent's weapon or move him or retrieve a spell component?

That list is for grapple, not for pinned. Pinned is a different condition than Grappling in the DMG. You are not grappling when pinned. You are pinned. You can escape pinned and then get into grappling, but pinned is a different condition.

If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions.

Can I load a heavy crossbow while grappling? Can I ready a shield? Can I light a torch? Retrieve a potion from my backpack?

If not, why not?

The list on page 156 does not state that it is all inclusive.

It does not state that you cannot do other non-physical actions that you can do while, for example, helpless.

Can you stabilize while pinned?

Can you choose to fail a saving throw or lower your spell resistance while pinned?


Does a creature lose its Supernatural Damage Reduction, just because it is pinned?


On top of that, Delay is not an action. It is a "no action". No action is done, so no action is prevented.

The point is, a pinned or grappled character is not mentally limited. They are physically limited.


A Barbarian can still Rage while Grappled or Pinned. He does not lose his rage, and he can also start it up. Rage is an Extraordinary ability. Is that suddenly lost?

Darkvision is an Extraordinary ability. Is that suddenly lost? "Ohh, he has a hand over my mouth. My Darkvision just turned off."


The Petrifying Gaze of a Medusa is a Supernatural Ability. Does she lose that when she is grappled or pinned?


Is the Extraordinary Acid ability of a Black Pudding lost while it is grappling?


Does a Pit Fiend lose its Supernatural Fear Aura while grappling or if pinned?


The pin rule states that you are immobile. Nothing more. It does not prevent you from doing anything which is mental in nature (like casting a spell without components). Since you are immobile, it does prevent you from doing physical actions outside attempting to escape from the pinned condition.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That list is for grapple, not for pinned. Pinned is a different condition than Grappling in the DMG. You are not grappling when pinned. You are pinned. You can escape pinned and then get into grappling, but pinned is a different condition.

You're grappling, and you're also pinned. Any reference to escaping or breaking a pin notes that you are no longer pinned, but you are still grappling. You don't stop being pinned and start grappling instead; rather, you stop being pinned, but do not stop grappling.

Someone who is pinning an opponent still loses his Dex bonus to AC against others; he is grappling. If you attack someone who is pinning or pinned with a ranged weapon, there's a chance to hit the wrong target; they are grappling.

Note that one of the things a pinning character can do is 'move the grapple'.

The list on page 156 does not state that it is all inclusive.

Hence my questions earlier. Can I load a crossbow? Retrieve a potion?

Can you stabilize while pinned?

Not an action, and thus not restricted by the list of allowable actions. No problem.

Can you choose to fail a saving throw...

Not an action. Go ahead.

... or lower your spell resistance while pinned?

An action that's not on the list. Can you lower you spell resistance while grappling? If so, can I load a crossbow?

Does a creature lose its Supernatural Damage Reduction, just because it is pinned?

Not an action.

On top of that, Delay is not an action. It is a "no action". No action is done, so no action is prevented.

True - Delay looks fine, unlike Ready.

The point is, a pinned or grappled character is not mentally limited. They are physically limited.

They're restricted to certain actions. Unlike the paralyzed condition, no mention is made of an exception for purely mental actions.

A Barbarian can still Rage while Grappled or Pinned. He does not lose his rage, and he can also start it up. Rage is an Extraordinary ability. Is that suddenly lost?

Entering a Rage is not defined as an action, though it can only be performed on one's turn. As you noted with Delay - non-actions aren't restricted.

Darkvision is an Extraordinary ability. Is that suddenly lost? "Ohh, he has a hand over my mouth. My Darkvision just turned off."

Not an action.

The Petrifying Gaze of a Medusa is a Supernatural Ability. Does she lose that when she is grappled or pinned?

The automatic gaze attack - still works fine. The targeted gaze that requires an attack action? It's not an attack with a light weapon, which is the only attack action permitted while grappling, so yes, she loses that while grappling.

Is the Extraordinary Acid ability of a Black Pudding lost while it is grappling?

Not an action.

Does a Pit Fiend lose its Supernatural Fear Aura while grappling or if pinned?

Not an action.

The pin rule states that you are immobile. Nothing more. It does not prevent you from doing anything which is mental in nature (like casting a spell without components). Since you are immobile, it does prevent you from doing physical actions outside attempting to escape from the pinned condition.

But the list of actions you can perform in a grapple does prevent you taking actions that aren't on the list.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

You're grappling, and you're also pinned. Any reference to escaping or breaking a pin notes that you are no longer pinned, but you are still grappling. You don't stop being pinned and start grappling instead; rather, you stop being pinned, but do not stop grappling.

Someone who is pinning an opponent still loses his Dex bonus to AC against others; he is grappling. If you attack someone who is pinning or pinned with a ranged weapon, there's a chance to hit the wrong target; they are grappling.

The DMG states that Pinned is "Held immobile (but not helpless) in a grapple."

You are in a grapple (i.e. you are wrestling or whatever), but you are not able to do the grapple actions if you are immobile.

"On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling."

Note that one of the things a pinning character can do is 'move the grapple'.

A pinning character can do that. A pinned character cannot.

There is no condition in the DMG called Pinning. However, we must look at the sentences:

"Once you've pinned an opponent, he's at your mercy. However, you don't have the freedom of action that you did while grappling."

Since a pinned character is still grappling (according to the DMG) and the pinning character is still wrestling, this sentence must refer to the "grappling list of actions" and not whether the pinning character is grappling or not.

Hence my questions earlier. Can I load a crossbow? Retrieve a potion?

Not an action, and thus not restricted by the list of allowable actions. No problem.

Not an action. Go ahead.

An action that's not on the list. Can you lower you spell resistance while grappling? If so, can I load a crossbow?

Lowering spell resistance is a standard action, but only for harmless spells (PHB 177). Hence, it can only be done on your turn.

This means that you cannot do a Cure Light Wounds on an unconscious Drow without first making the spell resistance roll.

This also means that you cannot Teleport a conscious Drow, even if he attempts to lower his Spell Resistance, without first making the spell resistance roll.

Not an action.

True - Delay looks fine, unlike Ready.

They're restricted to certain actions. Unlike the paralyzed condition, no mention is made of an exception for purely mental actions.

Entering a Rage is not defined as an action, though it can only be performed on one's turn. As you noted with Delay - non-actions aren't restricted.

Entering a Rage "takes no time at all". It is a choice to do something (or not).

Hence, it is a "not an action" action since free actions consume a small amount of time and "not an action" actions do not.

It is still an action though.

Not an action.

The automatic gaze attack - still works fine. The targeted gaze that requires an attack action? It's not an attack with a light weapon, which is the only attack action permitted while grappling, so yes, she loses that while grappling.

This is interesting.

She can accidentally gaze you. But, she cannot intentionally gaze you while grappling or pinned.

Seems like a dichotomy.

She also cannot "veil her eyes" (MM page 310) to prevent herself from accidentally gazing you (unless you are stating that this is a "not an action" action as opposed to a free action or unless you are stating that free actions are allowed).

Not an action.

Not an action.

But the list of actions you can perform in a grapple does prevent you taking actions that aren't on the list.

Many of these are "not an action" actions. They are still actions. The "not an action" action is still listed under the section Action Types.

You have just made an entire list of actions that you say are allowed while grappling, but are not on the list:

1) All "Not an action" actions that can occur due to other actions occurring while grappling. For example, making a saving throw if an opponent casts a spell at you.


Let's look at free actions. Are there some free actions that you can do while pinned? I suspect you might say no because they are not on the "grappling list".

For example:

1) Drop a weapon or item.
2) Drop prone.
3) Cease Concentration on a spell (even though Table 8-2 states that it is a free action and page 176 states that it is a not an action, I assume the text takes precendence?).
4) Speak (if your opponent does not stop you with his pin).

According to the "not on the grappling list" theory, none of these would be allowed with the possible exception of the (third one in the text and) the last one which is implied by the sentence: "At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking." In other words, if you do not take the option, he can perform the free action of speaking while pinned.


According to this, all grappling is also done while standing unless one opponent or the other somehow trips the other opponent, presumably before the grapple starts.

According to you, Special Attacks are not on the list (just like Gaze Attacks are not on the list), hence, Tripping is not allowed (unless it is a "not an action" action as part of another attack like in the case of a Wolf). And since Free Actions are also not allowed, no going prone to pull down your opponent.

Or, are Free Actions allowed after all?

No Turning. No Two Weapon Fighting (unless you are claiming that this is just another type of light weapon attack). No Mounted Combat (assuming your opponent gets up and grapples you on your horse).

No Breath Weapon by a Dragon (assuming you are large enough to grapple the Dragon).

No Blinking by a Blink Dog.


Grappling appears to be very powerful if it can stop all of this.


Now, here is where it gets tricky. Pinning only lasts for a round.

The moment your turn comes up again, you are no longer pinning your opponent.

So, you have to have a BAB of 6 or higher in order to do any of the "If You're Pinning an Opponent" actions (with the exception of the voluntary release which can be done even at BAB 0). First, you have to re-pin the opponent. Second, you can do one of those other actions.


All in all, I think the pinning only lasts one round rule is a bad rule, regardless of how you rule other actions while grappling or pinned. If one character is pinned and has about the same skill, he gets two times as many actions to break out as his opponent gets to keep him in (i.e. he gets to attempt an escape on his turn and auto-escapes the pin after one round where his opponent must use up an action to put him back in the pin).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Lowering spell resistance is a standard action, but only for harmless spells (PHB 177). Hence, it can only be done on your turn.

This means that you cannot do a Cure Light Wounds on an unconscious Drow without first making the spell resistance roll.

This also means that you cannot Teleport a conscious Drow, even if he attempts to lower his Spell Resistance, without first making the spell resistance roll.

From the DMG:
A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

Lowering spell resistance is a standard action. This is required, even if the spell is harmless. That doesn't mean that lowering your SR only lets harmless spells through. If you lower your SR, it's down until your next turn.

As for curing an unconscious drow, that's exactly right - SR will act against the cure spell.

It is still an action though.

'Not an action' is not an action. There is a section in the Table of Action Types for things that are not actions. That doesn't make them actions.

If we have a table of fluids and their colours, and one fluid has the note 'colourless', that doesn't mean it has a colour by virtue of being on the table. It means when we look at the table to determine its colour, we find that it has no colour.

When we look at the Table of Action Types to determine what type of action something is, we will sometimes find that it is not an action at all.

She can accidentally gaze you. But, she cannot intentionally gaze you while grappling or pinned.

Seems like a dichotomy.

Why? One's an action, the other is not.

According to this, all grappling is also done while standing unless one opponent or the other somehow trips the other opponent, presumably before the grapple starts.

Right.

Tripping is not allowed (unless it is a "not an action" action as part of another attack like in the case of a Wolf).

A Wolf's trip ability allows it to trip as a free action, not as a non-action.

And since Free Actions are also not allowed, no going prone to pull down your opponent.

True.

No Turning.

True.

No Two Weapon Fighting (unless you are claiming that this is just another type of light weapon attack).

Absolutely. In fact: "You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons." That one is fairly self-evident, hmm?

No Mounted Combat (assuming your opponent gets up and grapples you on your horse).

Well, you can't guide the horse with your knees while grappling. Most of the other elements of mounted combat are similarly prevented. Does this seem unreasonable?

No Breath Weapon by a Dragon (assuming you are large enough to grapple the Dragon).

No Blinking by a Blink Dog.

No starting or ending the blink effect, and no dimension door. If it was already blinking, the blinking would continue.

Now, here is where it gets tricky. Pinning only lasts for a round.
The moment your turn comes up again, you are no longer pinning your opponent.

So, you have to have a BAB of 6 or higher in order to do any of the "If You're Pinning an Opponent" actions (with the exception of the voluntary release which can be done even at BAB 0). First, you have to re-pin the opponent. Second, you can do one of those other actions.

That's right - it's been that way since 3E first came out...?

-Hyp.

 

[Coredump]

If you are pinned, you are grappling. "Use Supernatural Ability" is not on the list of actions that can be performed while grappling..

So, you are asserting that you can cast a spell, while grappled, or even attack, you can't use a Supernatural nor spell-like ability?



As for lists, the 'list' of what can be done while pinned is only 2. Bread with grapple, break with Escape artist.
Talking is implied, but not listed. Casting a spell is *not* listed.

It is mentioned (erroneously??) in the text under Cast a Spell, but it is not listed under If Your Pinned.... Is it an error that it was left out? Or is it an error that pinned was listed under casting? Either way, there seems to be an inconsistency.

 

[Tarril Wolfeye]

Note that one of the things a pinning character can do is 'move the grapple'.-Hyp.

How does he do that? Moving in a grapple requires a standard action and before he can use his next standard action, the pin ends.

 

[Hypersmurf]

How does he do that? Moving in a grapple requires a standard action and before he can use his next standard action, the pin ends.

Shapechange into a choker before grappling.

-Hyp.

 

[Tarril Wolfeye]

Shapechange into a choker before grappling.

-Hyp.

I'd prefer using Haste 3.0