How many AoO for a ranged attack spell/power?

[irdeggman]

This question/issue came up in an on-line game I'm in.

Psion is in a theatened square and manifests energy ray defensively.

How many AoO are involved?

I say 1 - the manifesting, but that is negated by the manifesting defensively.

He says 2. One for the manifesting (which is negated by the manifesting defensively) and another for using a weapon-like ranged spell/power.

A spell casting similarity can be drawn for the Acid Arrow spell.

 

[mvincent]

How many AoO are involved?

I say 1 - the manifesting, but that is negated by the manifesting defensively.

You are correct.

The ranged attack is part of the spellcasting. The action listed on the Standard Actions Table labeled "Attack (ranged)" does provoke, but that is a separate action than "Cast a spell" listed below it. "Attack (ranged)" is also listed as being with a weapon in its text description.

The 3.5 FAQ corroborates this:
"The caster uses
the cast a spell action (a standard action), and makes all the
ranged touch attacks the spell allows as part of that standard
action (not as part of the attack or full attack action); making
these attacks is not an action at all."

And also here:
"Shot on the Run feat could allow you to make
any kind of ranged attack while moving, but it doesn’t. When
using Shot on the Run, you must use the attack action with a
ranged weapon (see the feat description on page 100 in the
Player’s Handbook). This rules out using spells, most magic
items, or special standard actions such as the Manyshot feat
when making a Shot on the Run. That’s because casting a spell
would require the cast a spell action (described on page 140 of
the Player’s Handbook),"

Longer discussions on the matter can be found here and here.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You are correct.

The ranged attack is part of the spellcasting. The action listed on the Standard Actions Table labeled "Attack (ranged)" does provoke, but that is a separate action than "Cast a spell" listed below it. "Attack (ranged)" is also listed as being with a weapon in its text description.

Notice that Attack (Ranged) is also a separate action from Full Attack. Full Attack says AoO: No.

Does this mean that if I take the full attack action to shoot my bow, I don't provoke? No - because even though I am not taking the Attack (Ranged) action (which would provoke), and even though the Full Attack action itself does not provoke, the text of AoOs lists one example of a thing that provokes as "Attacking with a ranged weapon". So in this case, it is not my action (Full Attack) which provokes, but the fact I am attacking with a ranged weapon.

So if the Acid Arrow is considered an attack with a ranged weapon, that attack should provoke. If it is deemed that, despite being a 'weaponlike spell', it is not, then it should not provoke.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

The matter was fairly conclusively discussed in the threads I referenced. But ultimately: if the writer's had intended for a ranged spell to provoke twice, they almost certainly would've made that clear by now.

 

[irdeggman]

The matter was fairly conclusively discussed in the threads I referenced. But ultimately: if the writer's had intended for a ranged spell to provoke twice, they almost certainly would've made that clear by now.

I used the first FAQ entry (but not the shot on the run one) to no effect.

I actually looked through all of the information you are showing me, with the exception of the Energy Retort debate. My mind is made up on this. The rules as intended were that ranged attacks would provoke attacks of opportunity when made in melee range. Thank you for your research, but I am sticking to the designers' intentions on this one. I agree with them on it.

Energy Ray, on the other hand, requires the caster to target. This alone makes these two effects fundamentally different. Reading through the designers reasons for causing ranged attacks made in melee range to generate AoOs, they claim it is the concentration required to aim a ranged attack that causes you to provoke the AoO. What I am indicating is that whether or not the attack takes an "action", the caster is still doing the aiming for these ray spells. Therefore, it provokes an attack of opportunity.

Rules of the Game: Ranged Attacks (Part IV) wrote:
Spells: Any spell that requires you to make a ranged attack roll to aim the spell is subject to all the rules that govern ranged attacks, including most feats that improve ranged attacks.


Because the spell's ranged attack is governed by the rules that govern ranged attacks and not by the rules that govern only spellcasting, the ranged attack provokes an Attack of Opportunity as normal. I'm sorry if you disagree, but I spent a great deal of time thinking about it, analyzing the rules, and checking what others have said on the forums. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that the rules as written were not clear, but the rules as intended seem to be that ranged attacks from spells still provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for a ranged attack. Had you made a touch attack, you would not be making a ranged attack in combat and thus would not have provoked an attack of opportunity

I had tried the energy retort logic that you must be able to see the target and make a ranged touch attack for the field to hit - but this is not an action. My logic was that the reason that energy retort doesn't generate an AoO for its ranged attack is because it is not an action.

 

[mvincent]

I am sticking to the designers' intentions on this one

WotC custserv has answered this one already (see the conclusion at the end of the first thread I gave), so how is he certain of the designer's intent being opposite that?

 

[irdeggman]

WotC custserv has answered this one already (see the conclusion at the end of the first thread I gave), so how is he certain of the designer's intent being opposite that?

While I agree with the conclusion I would have a difficult time using a non-quote from customer serv as a basis.

"They said no" is just not complete enough for me, I like to see the text of the question and the answer when I try to use such things as "evidence".

 

[gnfnrf]

There are two questions here.

1.) Does a ranged spell attack provoke for the ranged attack?

2.) If the spellcasting also provokes, does the action provoke twice?

IMO, the answer to question 1 is clearly yes, at least for rays. From the SRD:

Ray

Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack.

... and ranged attacks provoke.

Question 2 is a little less clear to me. Personally, I say that no matter how many reasons an action qualifies for an AoO, it is only 1 opportunity, so only provokes once.

--
gnfnrf

 

[mvincent]

I don't have a vested interest in how anyone plays this (and if the other person in original post is the DM, then it's rule zero and shouldn't really be debated for that game), but:

The desciption for the concentration skills says:
"You can use Concentration to cast a spell, use a spell-like ability, or use a skill defensively, so as to avoid attacks of opportunity altogether."

If this was a misleading statement, it should've been noted by WotC somewhere. Sans that, assuming that the writer's intent was otherwise seems unwarranted.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Under Ray spells, it says 'can crit like a weapon', that doesn't mean you can cast Keen Weapon on the Ray to double its threat range, so 'aimed like a ranged weapon' doesn't mean 'provokes like a ranged weapon'.