How many escape grapple attempts does a Red Dragon get?

[AGGEMAM]

I know, but since grapple attempts are based off BAB, the number of natural weapons possessed by the creature shouldn't matter. A carrion crawler taking a full attack can make 12 attacks (IIRC - no MM at work) with natural weapons, but gets only one grapple check a round even with a full attack, due to low BAB. And since BAB-based attacks cap at 4, shouldn't that be the same for grapples (as in the example of the mature adult red dragon)?

The SRD seems down, right now, I will look into it later.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I know, but since grapple attempts are based off BAB, the number of natural weapons possessed by the creature shouldn't matter. A carrion crawler taking a full attack can make 12 attacks (IIRC - no MM at work) with natural weapons, but gets only one grapple check a round even with a full attack, due to low BAB. And since BAB-based attacks cap at 4, shouldn't that be the same for grapples (as in the example of the mature adult red dragon)?

Creatures with Improved Grab make grapple checks based on the quantity of their natural attacks, not their BAB. (Don't know where I read that, and I'm about to fix dinner. I'll look into it later if someone else doesn't get to it first. *grin*)

 

[AGGEMAM]

OK, looked into it (had my gaming night in between).

A grapple attemp is a melee attack.

A natural weapon is a melee weapon.

Therefore natural attacks can be used as grapple attempts.

It is that simple.

 

[shilsen]

Creatures with Improved Grab make grapple checks based on the quantity of their natural attacks, not their BAB. (Don't know where I read that, and I'm about to fix dinner. I'll look into it later if someone else doesn't get to it first. *grin*)

I'm pretty sure that was stated in MM2, so maybe that's where you read it.

 

[shilsen]

OK, looked into it (had my gaming night in between).

A grapple attemp is a melee attack.

A natural weapon is a melee weapon.

Therefore natural attacks can be used as grapple attempts.

It is that simple.

Not according to the FAQ, which is where I got the grapple/BAB ruling. And that's also (indirectly) what ConcreteBuddha is referencing above, since the Improved Grab ability to use the number of natural weapons for grapples is redundant if creatures without Improved Grab can do that anyway.

Personally I think it's easier to do it as you stated, but it looks like that's not the way the official rules work.

 

[the Jester]

Keep in mind, however, that the FAQ is extremely suspect- the people answering the questions there often, er, don't seem to know the rules all that well.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Not according to the FAQ, which is where I got the grapple/BAB ruling.

Well, I comfort myself with the fact that I am correct in the case regarding the dragon grappling. See the MM, page 62.

 

[shilsen]

Well, I comfort myself with the fact that I am correct in the case regarding the dragon grappling. See the MM, page 62.

Not to beat a grappling dragon , but I think the section you're referring to is simply reiterating the extant rule that light weapons can be used when fighting in a grapple. Since a dragon's natural weapons count as light for its own purposes, it can use all of them when trying to cause damage in a grapple. Lord Thurham's original question was about escaping from a grapple, and the only reference to that on pg.62 is that a dragon can "respond only with grapple checks to try winning free" when snatched or crushed by a larger dragon.

The way I see it so far is that if a mature adult red (Lord Thurham's example) is grappled, and wants to cause damage to the attacker, it can use all its natural attacks in a full attack. But if it wants to escape by making opposed grapple checks, then it gets only 4.

Anyway, as long as this doesn't come up in one of my games, no matter.

 

[Liquide]

This also brings up the (Weakest) Red Dragon Great Wyrm Fighter 20 fighting with 2 Colossal +5 Keen Scimitars of Speed

Feats: Weapon Focus(Scimitar), Weapon Specialization(Scimitar), Improved Critical(Scimitar), Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, IMproved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (not sure of the name the feat in MotW and the ELH, have neither at home)

How many attacks can he make?

Don't tell me he cannot wield the weapons since I don't really care if he cannot just imagine he that he can.

[edit]
Also include Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave and imagine that he is fighting an army for the "bucket of snails" cheese.

And tell me his potential damage aswell
[/edit]

 

[palin]

This also brings up the (Weakest) Red Dragon Great Wyrm Fighter 20 fighting with 2 Colossal +5 Keen Scimitars of Speed

Feats: Weapon Focus(Scimitar), Weapon Specialization(Scimitar), Improved Critical(Scimitar), Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, IMproved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (not sure of the name the feat in MotW and the ELH, have neither at home)

How many attacks can he make?

Don't tell me he cannot wield the weapons since I don't really care if he cannot just imagine he that he can.

[edit]
Also include Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave and imagine that he is fighting an army for the "bucket of snails" cheese.

And tell me his potential damage aswell
[/edit]

7 IIRC ..

4 For BAB ... 3 for the offhand weapon with the feats you specified.

Don't have a book handy ... so I could be wrong.