How many Hit points does a sacred cow have?

[enigma5915]

HARN had one of the most realistic systems I've seen, they even had weapon break rules when you parried an attack. The few games I did play were horrendous, no hit points, you simply rolled vs. your Endurance until you passed out, or in rare cases, were killed. There were at least 20 hit locations and armor pieces covered each (except the eyes). As you accumulated wounds, you're skills (by percentile) would slowly drop until you kept falling over yourself.

This style of game does appeal to some, not to me, especially not with D&D.

I agree, that version of a system is a little too complicated. But that does not mean we have to accept the fact that abstract hit points is only way. We can have a little detail and simulationism with out being too detailed like harn is. The middle ground if you will.

 

[DogBackward]

And D&D is currently failing partly because it went more into the wuxia direction...

There's a big difference between "Abstract game mechanics." and "Wuxia-inspired abilities and powers." Abstraction isn't about high-fantasy or low-fantasy, it's about making a system that is simple and easy-to-use, so you can get on with actually playing the game.

Also, D&D is failing because they adopted a "flood the market with half-baked crap" strategy, while Paizo was simultaneously perfecting the 3.5 system and pairing it with great customer support. Paizo made a better D&D than WotC, and that's pretty much it. You'll notice how Pathfinder is still rather abstract in the way they handle things? They got the hint.

 

[Derren]

heavy plate armor was very superior than other forms of armor is a given as far as damage reduction is concerned. So what is wrong with that?

Armor does not reduce damage. It prevents it.
Armor as DR is a completely silly idea. Not only is it unrealistic it also makes the game worse as it devalues small weapons.

There's a big difference between "Abstract game mechanics." and "Wuxia-inspired abilities and powers." Abstraction isn't about high-fantasy or low-fantasy, it's about making a system that is simple and easy-to-use, so you can get on with actually playing the game.

Also, D&D is failing because they adopted a "flood the market with half-baked crap" strategy, while Paizo was simultaneously perfecting the 3.5 system and pairing it with great customer support. Paizo made a better D&D than WotC, and that's pretty much it. You'll notice how Pathfinder is still rather abstract in the way they handle things? They got the hint.

And yet, "Shroedingers Wounds", the inability even for the DM to know if a wound is physical or not, because now people can be healed by shouting at them instead of magic, was and still is a common complain with 4E.

 

[DogBackward]

And yet, "Shroedingers Wounds", the inability even for the DM to know if a wound is physical or not, because now people can be healed by shouting at them instead of magic, was and still is a common complain with 4E.

This has been countered and explained dozens of times. It is not a grievous wound until it reduces you to 0 HP or less. Anything else is bruises, scratches and fatigue. And for the record, while people can't heal wounds by being inspired, people have been known to ignore some serious injuries, staying up by pure adrenaline and willpower. So yes, a warlord who uses inspiration to "heal" HP damage can, in fact, get someone standing again after they've taken a wound (also known as "had their HP reduced to 0 or less"). Once the battle is over, first aid can treat wounds well enough that, while they're not "healed", they are no longer life-threatening, and the person can keep on fighting.

If you really want to model wounds more accurately, I could see replacing negative HP with Wounds. If an attack would take you below 0 HP, then you are reduced to 0 HP, fall unconscious and suffer a Wound. While unconscious, you must check every round to avoid taking another Wound. Even if you are healed and wake up, the Wounds stay. Three Wounds and you're dead. Wounds heal at the rate of one per day assuming basic first-aid; the wound isn't completely gone, but you've recovered enough that it won't hamper you while it finishes healing.

This works to combine classic HP and the ability to model actual wounds. It also serves as a long-term damage counter; you may be at full health, but if you have two Wounds, you're still gonna have to be very careful to avoid dying. It also allows a few interesting mechanics to help cover other issues people have, as well; you may not have to worry about "Save or Die" spells, but "Save or take a Wound" spells may show up on dangerous enemies. You can have tons of healing abilities to recover HP, and from tons of sources... but only a Cleric can cast the spell that heals Wounds instantly. Unavoidable damage (falling from a great height, or being crushed by a closing wall trap) could cause outright wounds instead of HP damage. If you up the number of sources of Wounds like that, though, you may want to include an option for more Wounds. Fighters and Dwarves can each take an additional Wound before dying, for example; a Dwarven Fighter is great at not dying.

You'll note how this is still abstract, easy-to-run, and quick to play in-game.
And it took me about ten seconds to think up.

 

[billd91]

Armor does not reduce damage. It prevents it.
Armor as DR is a completely silly idea. Not only is it unrealistic it also makes the game worse as it devalues small weapons.

I don't agree with the first statement here, not with all weapons. There's a reason hammers and maces were considered formidable weapons on the battlefield. Even if they hit armor, force still gets transmitted to the wearer and can injure. Some kinds of weapons may be completely neutralized by a type of armor, others not.

Yet I agree that armor as DR is problematic for D&D. For system to go all DR, it needs to really control damage expressions far more than D&D does, otherwise armor is barely a speed bump. Yet it also needs the ability to target weak spots to bypass DR. I think it's easier to let the abstraction of AC handle whether or not the attacker found a chink in the armor or hit hard enough to still transfer force through the armor.

 

[Dour-n-Taciturn]

6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Whether armor "prevents" a hit or prevents damage is predicated on your style of play. Yes when something swings at you and clangs into your shiny tin can helmet it does indeed "hit" but unless there is enough heft or solid contact, the blow will turn or simply graze you (the classic "flesh wound").

Thus a hit that inflicts no damage is counted as a miss or an otherwise inconsequential strike (unless you're incorporating touch-AC rules) and is therefore dismissed so that the combat may continue, allowing the game to flow.

 

[enigma5915]

6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Whether armor "prevents" a hit or prevents damage is predicated on your style of play. Yes when something swings at you and clangs into your shiny tin can helmet it does indeed "hit" but unless there is enough heft or solid contact, the blow will turn or simply graze you (the classic "flesh wound").

Thus a hit that inflicts no damage is counted as a miss or an otherwise inconsequential strike (unless you're incorporating touch-AC rules) and is therefore dismissed so that the combat may continue, allowing the game to flow.

Touch AC is exactly what I'd like to incorporate. There are many times when its necessary to know whether or not you have made physical contact. Such is the case with some spells and magical effects throughout some editions that take effect upon contact and not actually taking damage. D&D came up with the touch AC patch because of this issue.

 

[Dour-n-Taciturn]

If you apply touch-AC, it has to scale, the problem in 3rd ED was incorporeal undead or large grapplers that effectively always hit and proceeded to drain ability scores or pin their opponents.

To by-pass armor, rules are in play that allow effects to target REF, FORT, or WILL, either as a save or defense. You want to touch someone, you attack their REF. I think the 4th ED rules using Acrobatics or Athletics to grapple or break free were well conceived.

I would like 5th ED to do something similar, that way you don't need a separate AC stat for touch effects. Alternatively, you could apply touch-AC in place of REF saves/defenses.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

only, that skills and defenses scaled diferently in all but theorie, as somehow magic items and ability modifiers were not taken into account...

the idea however was brilliant

 

[Dour-n-Taciturn]

only, that skills and defenses scaled diferently in all but theorie, as somehow magic items and ability modifiers were not taken into account...

the idea however was brilliant

Which brings to light the idea of defenses as skills, as in many other systems; the catch there is that everyone would throw all their resources into maxing out those skills.

The scaling defenses in Star Wars and Conan are good templates to consider for REF/FORT/WILL/AC. Some classes having better scaling than others, but the disadvantage of this is at higher levels the weakest is all but useless, prompting the 1/2 level advancement.