How many Hit points does a sacred cow have?

[dkyle]

But he is partly incapacitated compared to his usual state. He's a lot less resilient with only 1% of his full hit points. His offense is not directly impaired, but his ability to survive another fight is significantly impaired.

That sounds a heck of a lot more explainable with intangibles, than with combatants constantly getting incredibly specific wounds that do not impact their fighting ability, skills and movement, but somehow decimate their ability to avoid getting killed.

 

[Fanaelialae]

But he is partly incapacitated compared to his usual state. He's a lot less resilient with only 1% of his full hit points. His offense is not directly impaired, but his ability to survive another fight is significantly impaired.

That's a pretty situational "incapacitation".

It only stands if the creature wouldn't be able to one-shot him anyway. Before you say that that's a corner-case, I saw this plenty of times at level 1 pre-4e. An ogre, for example, was a level appropriate challenge that could take most characters below zero hp with just minimum damage. It didn't really matter whether you had 1 hp or 6hp.

Also, only if a creature successfully deals damage to him. If he has a high AC, he might go through the next fight completely unscathed, and without someone telling you, you wouldn't be able to tell whether he had 1 hp or 10,000 hp.

Is there even a real life scenario where someone is fighting, unimpaired in offense (and more or less unimpaired in defense), yet you can point at him and say "the next injury will take him down for sure"? I can't think of one. IMO, that's because hp is primarily an intangible. They don't truly have a real world equivalent, they're merely a game concept and a convenience.

 

[billd91]

That sounds a heck of a lot more explainable with intangibles, than with combatants constantly getting incredibly specific wounds that do not impact their fighting ability, skills and movement, but somehow decimate their ability to avoid getting killed.

I wouldn't really say it's much easier to explain with intangibles than physical. So what if there are no other impairments? There would be no agreement which should be included anyway. Shot with an arrow? Should that slow your walking speed? Should it give you a penalty to hit? Depends where it hit you and that's getting into specifics D&D has usually avoided - rightly so, in my opinion.

In the abstract D&D combat system, the important penalty is you can't take any more hits without being taken down.

I'm content with hit points incorporating intangibles. I'm not content with them being entirely intangibles, nor with them being so undefined in the sense that we can't tell which they were until we resolve how the hp loss is recovered. I'd probably prefer that D&D assume that every hit imply that both physical and intangibles were included. The physical might not always be an actual injury. It might also reflect the expenditure of energy, the relatively buildup of weariness, the impending exhaustion of internal reserves of energy.

I'm not particularly fussed by a warlord encouraging another character into a rally (using a healing surge). I figure if I can visualize Mickey Goldmill shouting "Geddup, Rock! Show him what yer made of!" and Rocky Balboa picking himself off the mat to rally against Apollo Creed, then the warlord works OK for me. Of course, at that point, Rocky is still really conscious and can respond. That's where the power utterly breaks down for me. If Rocky is already splayed on the mat, insensate, then he ain't moving no matter what Mickey yells at him. The use of intangible healing should really only get you so far when we should be looking at the PCs actually being physically worn down too.

 

[billd91]

Is there even a real life scenario where someone is fighting, unimpaired in offense (and more or less unimpaired in defense), yet you can point at him and say "the next injury will take him down for sure"? I can't think of one. IMO, that's because hp is primarily an intangible. They don't truly have a real world equivalent, they're merely a game concept and a convenience.

There have been cases of badly wounded soldiers managing to conduct some pretty heroic actions in after action reports. Adrenaline seems to do some pretty amazing things. With that in mind, there doesn't always appear to be a "death spiral" for injured people in real life, though sometimes there is. I'm not sure it's worth it to incorporate that sort of factor into D&D... other than the idea of making the PC more vulnerable to the killing blow, whenever it comes.

I would take issue that having no penalty to saves or AC, but having significant hp damage, as being more or less unimpaired in defense. That PC is impaired. He is less able to deflect a hit to take less damage. He is unable to dodge enough to turn a skewer into a glancing blow. Hit points are very much an aspect of a PC's defense in D&D.

 

[dkyle]

I'm content with hit points incorporating intangibles. I'm not content with them being entirely intangibles, nor with them being so undefined in the sense that we can't tell which they were until we resolve how the hp loss is recovered.

This is where a very simple wound system, like the one I proposed up-thread, would help. Even if the wound is no more serious than Bloodied in 4E, it would give something to point to and say "that's a wound", and allow HP to be limited to minor physical injuries and intangibles, recoverable through physical (Cleric healing) and intangible (Warlord healing) means.

I'm not particularly fussed by a warlord encouraging another character into a rally (using a healing surge). I figure if I can visualize Mickey Goldmill shouting "Geddup, Rock! Show him what yer made of!" and Rocky Balboa picking himself off the mat to rally against Apollo Creed, then the warlord works OK for me. Of course, at that point, Rocky is still really conscious and can respond. That's where the power utterly breaks down for me. If Rocky is already splayed on the mat, insensate, then he ain't moving no matter what Mickey yells at him. The use of intangible healing should really only get you so far when we should be looking at the PCs actually being physically worn down too.

While I don't think rousing an incapacitated ally is completely unreasonable, I would like to see 0 HP mean more than it does in 4E, even for Clerics. Not just for realism, but also because I think there's a lot of gameplay value in having an "out of the combat, but not dead" state (curable with extraordinary abilities). It lends real tension to hitting 0 HP, as opposed to the optimal play in 4E often being "don't bother healing him now; wait till he goes negative", since healing negative HP is free.

 

[Fanaelialae]

There have been cases of badly wounded soldiers managing to conduct some pretty heroic actions in after action reports. Adrenaline seems to do some pretty amazing things. With that in mind, there doesn't always appear to be a "death spiral" for injured people in real life, though sometimes there is. I'm not sure it's worth it to incorporate that sort of factor into D&D... other than the idea of making the PC more vulnerable to the killing blow, whenever it comes.

I would take issue that having no penalty to saves or AC, but having significant hp damage, as being more or less unimpaired in defense. That PC is impaired. He is less able to deflect a hit to take less damage. He is unable to dodge enough to turn a skewer into a glancing blow. Hit points are very much an aspect of a PC's defense in D&D.

I'd say a low hp character has been worn down, but that he's not seriously impaired. Yes, he can't dodge enough to turn a skewer into a glancing blow. It's also true, however, that a (3e) fighter at 1 hp can Whirlwind Attack at his full attack bonus all day long. He can run at full tilt regardless of whether he has 1 hp or 10,000 hp.

Besides, my original reference that you quoted was about a character at 1 hp having been "critically wounded". Clearly that is not the case. Adrenaline can only support someone for a limited time, whereas the 1 hp fighter has no such limit, assuming he doesn't take any more damage.

To be clear, I'm not saying that I think hp should be more realistic. I'm happy with the current level of abstraction. It's simple, fast, fun, and it works. I couldn't ask for anything more.

 

[Kaodi]

There is a proven formula for establishing how many hit points a Sacred Cow has: (H) = (P) x (L)-Squared , where H is for hit points, P is for total people who play the game, and L is for their average character level to the power of two.

 

[Szatany]

It is really pretty much academic.

In D&D sacred cows have so much DR no one can even get to their hit points.

But DR doesn't protect from fire

 

[Dour-n-Taciturn]

But DR doesn't protect from fire

It does if it's "holy" fire...

 

[Szatany]

It does if it's "holy" fire...

Holy fire burns the books with sacred cows written in all the same