How many "steps" is too many?

[Neonchameleon]

I like the idea of getting away from HP bloat.
I'd go so far as to say that how modern D&D handles HP is a contributing factor in combat feeling kinda bland at times.

On a personally subjective level, I care less about big numbers than I would about giving the numbers more meaning and substance.

It absolutely is.

Just to explain Daggerheart HP, as we've gone into all hits do between 1 and 3hp of damage. Starting PCs have about 6hp (OK, so wizards have 5, guardians 7, and I think from memory dwarves give +1). As for HP growth, you can gain a maximum total of six more hp from levelling up.

When you hit 0hp you get three options:

• Go down - with a chance of a permanent slightly debilitating scar. And there's little enough healing you're probably out until the next rest
• Go out in a blaze of glory - one action, free crit, and then you die
• Risk It All with (on paper) just over a 45% chance of death - but a whole lot of healing if you succeed.

It doesn't claim to be non-cinematic but does have at least some meaning.

 

[Argyle King]

@Neonchameleon

I don't mind "cinematic." I am of the belief that something can be cinematic while still maintaining some level of plausibility (or least while feeling plausible-ish enough that my brain doesn't hurt).

At times, I've likened my fantasy tastes to pro-wrestling:

Sure, there are plenty of things (i.e. Undertaker being an undead wrestler or the idea of an "irish-whip") that would never make sense in an actual fight, but (when it's done well) it tries to be believable enough to resemble a combat sport for me to buy into it. On the other hand, when it's done poorly (i.e. guy takes an unprotected sledgehammer shot to the face and still kicks out at 1 or the heel blatantly cheating in front of the referee without being DQed,) it's harder to enjoy.

 

[Gorgon Zee]

Spinning this out of the Daggerheart thread and making it more general.

When considering a particular process in play, how many steps is too many.

For example, in D&D, the process of attacking is: roll to hit, compare to AC, roll damage, apply damage.

Well, you could also break it down as:

1. Calculate situational modifiers to determine attack and defense modifiers to apply to next strep
2. Roll to hit, incorporating modifiers
3. Check for a critical hit and/or for fumbles
4. Check for interrupts that may be used to affect this roll
5. If applicable roll damage adding in any modifiers from above step
6. Check for damage mitigation effects
7. Check for interrupts that may affect this number
8. Apply damage and check for status change.

The above are all steps that can take a non-trivial amount of time at least in some versions of D&D.

 

[Thomas Shey]

This is really difficult for me to answer because it depends not only on the number of steps, but how much handling a step has. As an example, when playing RuneQuest I was used to up to four steps, three from the attacker (attack roll, hit location, damage) and one from the defender (parry or dodge) and it never felt excessive. It also matters whether all the steps involve die rolls; I've seen games where they were just references, and those could go even faster.

I'd want to say I'd want to see the benefits involved for more than about three, but that doesn't mean as many as six would feel excessive if they seemed to serve some purpose.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I just realized there's also the question of how many "steps" actually get engaged routinely. Aftermath back in its day had a combat flowchart, but it indicated more nodes than routinely anyone would do.

 

[aramis erak]

Okay, so not Frag, but not entirely unlike Frag either.

I don't see that as overly complicated. However, I can see how some others might feel that is extra steps for an rpg to accomplish something like "Soak" or Armor as DR.

In a few videos I've watched about Daggerheart, it was expressed that most often the result is 1HP. I think it was Professor DM who had some mild criticism of that.

in my two sessions, the most common was actually 2 hp... between the two thresholds. Armor reduced that to one frequently enough, but at tier 2 (second session) damage outpaced armor.