How many modifier types SHOULD there be?

[Endur]

If stacking isn't allowed shouldn't the AC be 21?

No, armor and shield are both equipment, but they are a special exception to the equipment rules where 1 armor and 1 shield count towards AC.

 

[Endur]

So, the bonus from bless would stack with the bonus from [/i]inspire courage[/i]?

I'm thinking overlap. Bless and Inspire Courage would be enhancement or magical bonuses and lumped in with all other magical bonuses.

 

[Abraxas]

No, armor and shield are both equipment, but they are a special exception to the equipment rules where 1 armor and 1 shield count towards AC.

Thats how it is now - but RI said no stacking.
I was hoping he would pop back in, explain that he was keeping this exception and comment if it was going to be the only one allowed or not.

 

[MerricB]

Here are some notes on each category and how I'd like to see each collapsed for different bonus types.

Note, I'd eliminate SIZE modifiers entirely. This list ignores modifiers given by ability scores, which would remain, and unnamed modifiers from feats like Weapon Focus that continue to stack.

Armour Class
- armour bonus (includes enhancement to armour)
- shield bonus (includes enhancement to shield)
** - natural armour bonus (includes enhancement to natural armour) - this is one that could be merged with armour, and I think might well be worth it to prevent skyrocketting ACs.
- deflection bonus

Attack Rolls
- enhancement bonus
- morale bonus

Damage Rolls
- enhancement bonus
- morale bonus

Ability Scores
- enhancement bonus
- inherent bonus

Skill Checks
- enhancement bonus (for items that aid the action)
- morale bonus (for effects that improve your skill)

Cheers!

 

[Storm Raven]

Here is what I woudl do to simplify bonus types:

Alchemical gets folded into Circumstance. [Circumstance]
Combine Armor and Natural Armor. [Armor]
Combine Deflection and Shield. [Deflection]
Competence and Insight get folded into Enhancement. [Enhancement]
Dodge stays. [Dodge]
Inherent stays. [Inherent]
Combine Luck, Morale, Profane and Sacred, and fold them into Circumstance. [Circumstance]
Racial becomes untyped. [untyped]
Resistance gets folded into Enhancement. [Enhancement]
Size stays. [Size]

This leaves us with the following bonus types: Armor, Circumstance, Deflection, Dodge Enhancement, Inherent, Size, and untyped.

I think some of these are ill-chosen.

If you lump natural armor with armor, then there is never a reason for giants (for example) to wear armor. If you combine luck, morale, profane, sacred, and so on into one type, then you have to refigure how classic spells like bless and prayer work, since they have always stacked, but now couldn't.

I don't think that the number of types of bonuses now are that big of a problem. A couple corner cases might be eliminated, but on the whole they solve more problems than they cause by giving clear guidance about what works with what.

 

[Yalius]

I might give these a shot.


Intrinsic-- Class features, natural armor, basically bonii resulting from what you are.

Inherent-- Bonii from what you use, e.g., armor and shield (combined to form a single bonus) or mundane tools.

Enhancement-- Bonii from magic. The majority of spells or enchantments.

Circumstantial-- Situational bonii. Slippery floor, higher ground, surprise, etc.

The difference between bless and prayer? Bless is an enhancement bonus (targeted effect), prayer is a circumstance (general "favor of the gods").

Best bonus of each category stacks. No unnamed bonii, they have to fit into one of the above.

That's just an opinion, how I'd do it.

 

[Hussar]

Out of curiousity, how many is too much. I'm thinking there are what 15, maybe 16 bonus types in the game. At best, any given roll might be affected by three, maybe four in play.

How hard is it to keep track of four variables? I have no interest in being snarky, but, how often is this even remotely a problem?

 

[diaglo]

Out of curiousity, how many is too much. I'm thinking there are what 15, maybe 16 bonus types in the game. At best, any given roll might be affected by three, maybe four in play.

How hard is it to keep track of four variables? I have no interest in being snarky, but, how often is this even remotely a problem?

at higher levels more become common.

so ability score is at all levels. then you get some form of magic bonus which usually stacks with an ability score. or stacks with a class ability. then you get the magic from items. then you get feat scores which get added as you meet prereqs and then take the feat. then you get size and shape/form changing scores as you use magic or class.

bards singing, paladins standing nearby, masterwork items, potions, yadda yadda yadda

yeah it is a problem if you have a casual player who doesn't pay more attention to the game other than when is it his turn to roll.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Thats how it is now - but RI said no stacking.
I was hoping he would pop back in, explain that he was keeping this exception and comment if it was going to be the only one allowed or not.

Oops. My bad. I wrote offline while I was supposed to be in a meeting and then pasted into the post. I lost a chunk somewhere.

Armor+shield is an oddball. I don't think you want to eliminate sword-and-board fighters or see guys running around in loincloths and tower shields. Making a rare exception to allow them to stack is not going to be a big deal.

Another possibility (to offset some of the lost AC via magic) would be to treat equipment by 'slot'. Since the body slot (armor) and shield slot are different, you count both. It's sort of stacking, but since you can't have more than one item in a slot, it keeps it to a minimum. And it would also let those so inclined add helmets, greaves, bracers, etc. with equipment bonuses to armor class. That would help counteract the loss of the +5 chain shirt/+5 shield combos, amulets of natural amor, and so forth.

Equipment bonuses aren't terribly dynamic. Someone might change weapons in a fight, but that's likely pre-calculated on their sheet to include weapon focus (hmmm...maybe need a 'feat' bonus type, or that could be part of 'Class') etc. Don't see people change armor mid-fight much.

Note that this also seperates out the masterwork/+1 weapon overlap. A magic masterwork sword would be +2 to hit, +1 damage (+1 to hit from equipment, +1 to hit and +1 damage from magic). You could also modify armor rules to allow masterwork armor to add +1 to AC if you wanted to boost that a little, too.

 

[Particle_Man]

Well, one option might be to leave ability scores, nonmagical armor, and nonmagical shields alone.

Then divide all magical bonuses (including spells, powers and spelllike abilities and supernatural abilities and magical stuff in general) into elemental types: Earth, Air, Water and Fire. Have only the highest of each elemental type count as a bonus, but have different elemental types stack with each other (For Fire bonus +2, Fire bonus +3 and Water bonus +1, the total bonus would be 3+1=4).

Oh, and I would eliminate or reduce the current size bonus as written for things like grapple checks, but that is another thread, perhaps.