How many natural attacks can a Warshaper make?

[blargney the second]

The Morphic Weapons ability of the Warshaper (PrC from CW) takes a move action to create a natural attack. The class description also implies that they can make more than one (tentacle and fangs are the example, I think). How many of them would you allow it to create?

-blarg

 

[Pyrex]

Yet another poorly-written ability...

In our group we ruled that you could only create one additional attack with that ability.

 

[Sejs]

Uno. One. Singular.

The ability says you can make A natural attack. Just one. Doesn't matter if you're bristling with claws, horns, tusks, tentacles, power doors, a 15-year drivetrain warranty, segmented eyes, and a proboscis - you're only making an attack with one of them in a given round; take your pick.

Look at it like this - even if you sprout a billion quills with biting mouths on the end, you still have no natural attack routine. You know, like a "2 Claws at X, Bite at Y", etc? You don't have any of that. Leaves you swinging only one natural weapon a round.

Edit/Clarification: Re-reading over the original post - I would let the warshaper create as many as they want to, at a rate of one per move action expended. I would only let them attack with one at a time, as outlined above however. Look as monsterous and freaky as you like. It's mostly just window dressing in the end.

 

[blargney the second]

We ended up ruling the same way, Pyrex. I'm taking a level of Warshaper for my Changeling gestalt Fighter/Rogue. When I realised that he could get a whole pile of attacks, I asked my DM to restrict it to a single extra attack. It's too sick a combo for our game.

I'm just curious what other people's experience has been with it.
-blarg

EDIT: I like that reasoning, Sejs. That makes a lot of sense. I can still swing my battleaxe with BAB +7/+2, then follow up with a slam (or any one other natural attack present) at +2, right?

 

[Cabral]

Without viewing the rules on it. No.

Only if a creature's description normally allows for it to wield its natural weapons along side manufactured weapons can it do so. Unless the Warshaper makes such an allowance, no.

 

[Sejs]

EDIT: I like that reasoning, Sejs. That makes a lot of sense. I can still swing my battleaxe with BAB +7/+2, then follow up with a slam (or any one other natural attack present) at +2, right?

Thank you. And yeah, I'd let that fly just fine using the rules for making a secondary natural attack in addition to attacks with a manufactured weapon. Sounds kosher to me. *nod*

 

[blargney the second]

Only if a creature's description normally allows for it to wield its natural weapons along side manufactured weapons can it do so. Unless the Warshaper makes such an allowance, no.

You've inspired me to do some homework, Cabral.

Here are the relevant bits on manufactured weapons and natural weapons. For the sake of completeness, I also had a quick look through the FAQ to see if it could illuminate the subject of combining natural weapons with manufactured ones. It actually has a pile of interesting examples using lizardmen.

Here are the bits that I've gleaned:
1) Manufactured weapons are always primary attacks.
2) They always use iterative BAB attacks.
3) Any natural attacks that aren't primary are secondary. (-5, 1/2 Str)
4) Secondary natural attacks can be appended to a manufactured sequence.

Here's the surprise for me: there don't appear to be any rules regarding the need for a specific natural weapon attack sequence in order to use them with a manufactured weapon. In fact, it seems to be a more open-ended system than I'd thought, and the sequences in the MM are simply for DM convenience. (which makes sense.) The gist of it appears to be: decide which natural weapon is the creature's favourite attack, then make all the others secondary.

The upshot of all this that I think it's possible for the Warshaper to create one of each type of natural weapon and attack with them as secondary weapons alongside a manufactured weapon. That being said, it's totally ludicrous, particularly in the instance of this character in this game. I think the simple rule of restricting the Warshaper to one (secondary) natural attack is a simple and reasonable solution.

-blarg

 

[Cabral]

You've inspired me to do some homework, Cabral.

Woot.

I don't remember where I found the clause saying that a creature entry has to state that it can use natural weapons along side manufactured weapons in order to do so. I came across it during the Vampire Thread. Maybe looking there will help

Edit: Found it!

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks.

An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry)

 

[blargney the second]

Hmm. For some reason I'm loathe to use any rules concerning monks as a basis for adjudicating the admixture of natural weapons with manufactured weapons. With all the confusion of unarmed-but-sort-of-natural attacks, flurrying, and supercedence of texts, monks sort of muddy the waters. Well, more like muddy, octopus ink, cast darkness, then pee in for good measure.

I just want to go axe, axe, kick to the shin. Is that so much to ask?
-blarg

 

[Infiniti2000]

I don't remember where I found the clause saying that a creature entry has to state that it can use natural weapons along side manufactured weapons in order to do so. I came across it during the Vampire Thread. Maybe looking there will help

Edit: Found it!

That FAQ does not support your statement in the least. Flurry of blows has nothing to do with this at all and that's all that quote talks about.

You can definitely combine a natural weapon attack with a manufactured weapon attack, blargney.