How many people can be in a 5'X5' square?

[Pielorinho]

Yes, it does sound right. I wasn't clear enough when I said we should be looking at volume rather than area, what I really meant was available volume, so that extra vertical space doesn't really help, but elbow room helps a great deal.

Ah, I see what you're saying!

Still, though, I think the proportions aren't thrown off. Imagine a 5' tall character. If they have half of a 5' square to move in, they have 2.5' by 5' by 5' tall cubic feet to move in, or 62.5 cubic feet. If they have a 2.5' shaft to move in, they have 2.5' by 2.5' by 5' long cubic feet to move in, or 31.25 cubic feet. Again, their movement space is halved, just as it'd be if you didn't figure in the third dimension.

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

Ah, I see what you're saying!

Still, though, I think the proportions aren't thrown off. Imagine a 5' tall character. If they have half of a 5' square to move in, they have 2.5' by 5' by 5' tall cubic feet to move in, or 62.5 cubic feet. If they have a 2.5' shaft to move in, they have 2.5' by 2.5' by 5' long cubic feet to move in, or 31.25 cubic feet. Again, their movement space is halved, just as it'd be if you didn't figure in the third dimension.

Daniel

Yes and no. Actually, I'm thinking you'd have 31.25 cubic feet in the shaft, but if four of you were in a five foot square, you'd each have much more than 31.25 cubic feet avaiable - because you can overlap into the adjoining 2.5x2.5 spaces.

See? The issue is not how much cubic feet are in your own little space - it's how much space is [/b][/i]available[/b][/i] to you. That includes the area surrounding you that someone else is occupying. You can certainly put elbows, etc, into that space and use it to cover up, or whatever.

Thus, you can't really rely on math, here. What you've got to do is look at the situation and check the following:

1. Is the situation somewhat like being bound or in a very confined space (like a small shaft)?

2. At the same time, if #1 seems to be true, is the situation no worse than being grappled, which allows a save.

Check those two things and make your ruling. Clearly two people in a five foot square is much less confining than a small shaft, so #1 does not apply, thus the save is allowed.

The rules are not absolute, but guidelines do exist - the restriction on your ability to move about like being bound or in a small shaft, while at the same time more restrictive than being grappled.

 

[Pielorinho]

Yes and no. Actually, I'm thinking you'd have 31.25 cubic feet in the shaft, but if four of you were in a five foot square, you'd each have much more than 31.25 cubic feet avaiable - because you can overlap into the adjoining 2.5x2.5 spaces.

I pretty much agree with all your points, and I think our disagreement (if it exists) is over a minor mathematical point: it's restriction by area, not by volume, that limits in most cases. If you can overlap into the adjoining 2.5 x 2.5 spaces, you're still overlapping in areas, not in volume. I was just pointing out that when you bring a third dimension into things, proportions don't get correspondingly exaggerrated.

In other words, the limit in the shaft isn't the shaft's length: it's the shaft's breadth and height that holds you in. Bigger shafts aren't necessarily better.

If, however, you were suspended in a 3'x3'x3' iron cage, and a wizard fireballs you, then you'd be limited in three dimensions, even more limited than you'd be in a 2.5'x2.5' shaft.

But as I said, I agree with the gist of what you're saying and am just being nitpicky about a math point.

Daniel