How mediaeval is D&D, anyway?

[Ranger REG]

It's medieval fantasy, with emphasis on the fantasy.

...And spikes on armors.

 

[Maggan]

...And spikes on armors.

Hey, if that's your fantasy, more power to you!

/M

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

Totally agree.

I think we tend too much to think about the technological differences: no cars, no electricity, no telephones... hey it must be the middle ages!

Or Gilligan's Island.

 

[Doug McCrae]

...And spikes on armors.

And chains. And shields. Wonder what the stats would be for a spiked spike.

 

[Hussar]

D&D is as medieval as it needs to be to fit with genre conventions.

 

[Raven Crowking]

In this thread, I agree with Delta, Man in the Funny Hat, and Hussar.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

Instantaneous travel and communication? Check
Universal Literacy (at least in 'civilized' lands)? for pete's sake, it's spelled out in the PHB that everybody can speak and write their native language. Check
Governments organized on something other than familial relationships? Mostly so Check
Complex economies based on consumer goods? a hearty Check

In my campaign Waterdeep has more in common with San Francisco (circa 1900) than it does 14th-16th century Paris

It's those words, "in my campaign", that ultimately determine how medieval, enlightened, or whatever else a D&D setting is. Rabelais' approach, to make Waterdeep akin to 1900 San Francisco, is certainly valid, and there's nothing at all wrong with it. If you want to play that way, great.

If you don't want to make your world a fantasy equivalent of 21st century Earth, however...


Instantaneous Travel and Communcation: Not a chance. There are so few wizards and clerics of high enough level to cast such spells that there simply aren't enough of them to permit instant communication.

Most people walk, or either take ships, horses or wagons. You have to be 18th level to manufacture a carpet or broom of flying, and this is a setting where being 7th level is an exceptional feat. There aren't enough flying magical items to permit instant travle.

Universal Literacy: You're joking, right? Even many nobles and generals are illiterate. There simply aren't enough teachers, whether clerics or laypeople, to teach everyone how to read or write, especially when they have to constantly look over their shoulders for the next orc, goblin or bandit raid.

Governments based on something other than familial ties: Yes, in some places, although even then in many places women and various demihuman races may not be allowed to vote (the Yeomanry and Perrenland), not be allowed to own or inherit property on their own, being forced to step aside when a suitable male comes along, and generally be treated as second-class citizens (Furyondy, Onnwal, Nyrond, Sterich, Raik, Northern Aerdy, Ahlissa, etc.) Most governments are based on family ties, links of patronage, and other things-human and dwarven males can often have a greater social stature than other genders and races.

Complex economies based on consumer goods: Not exactly. Money is constantly being cycled in and out of the economy as humanoids, bandits and monsters kill people and take their treasure, and then adventurers bring it back. People might buy essential goods like soap, vegetables, tools or meat, but otherwise they try to be as self-sufficient as possible, even going so far as to use their own..."business" for fuel, and keep water sources pure for drinking, rather than risk polluting it. Only the rich can buy fancy consumer goods like jewelry, gilded coaches, slaves, exotic pets, or furs.

Then there are other social conventions:

-Someone insult you? Beat an apology out of him. Or, if you're a woman, send a champion to avenge your honor, unless you do it yourself. Given that most men will underestimate you, you can use that to your advantage.

-As the nobles, we're hiring you to kill those giants and get rid of them. And don't come back if you fail-if the giants don't kill you, we will!

-Catch someone picking your pocket? Feel free to cut off their hand.

-The Mercenaries' Guild: No women, elves or halflings need apply.

-Yes, this is Sunndi, and it like to make a big pretense of being friendly and tolerant to all. Unfortunately, even Sunndi, for all its goodness, doesn't always live up to its reputation. Just ask those dwarves who keep getting harassed and insulted everywhere they go.

-You see that woman with the big broadsword strapped to her back? Don't go telling her this tavern is for human men only...unless you want to end up like the last guy who got on her bad side.

-Peasants can't study magic, or use swords, spears, maces, or bows. It's the law of the land, even in the kingdom of Furyondy.

Not so 21st century now, is it?

 

[Hussar]

Most people walk, or either take ships, horses or wagons. You have to be 18th level to manufacture a carpet or broom of flying, and this is a setting where being 7th level is an exceptional feat. There aren't enough flying magical items to permit instant travle.

What setting is this?

 

[T. Foster]

D&D is an evocation of a fantasy medieval world with strong elements of orientalist romance.

The two descriptors that most properly describe what D&D's creators were attempting to invoke are "medievalist" and "orientalist". In the 19th century, artists, writers, and academics became enamored of the middle ages as a romantic setting -- Tennyson, Sir Walter Scott, the Pre-Raphaelites, the Eglinton Tournament of 1839 to name but a few examples. Concurrently, a fascination with the exotic aspects of the near east produced artists like Ingres, the growing popularity of the Arabian Nights, and attempts to create both visual and narrative pastiches that evoked an exotic eastern setting, like Coleridge's Khubla Khan. This aesthetic has since been called "orientalism." These two movements were not concerned with historical or cultural accuracy, but with creating a fantasy of long ago or far away. You can trace the influence of these movements through the fiction of Lord Dunsany, who in turn influenced HPL and REH, and on to DeCamp, Fritz Leiber and Jack Vance, and finally to D&D.

All this is by way of saying, D&D is not "medieval" in the sense of the historical middle ages, but in its early incarnations, anyway, was firmly rooted in the medievalist and orientalist traditions that recast the middle ages and the classical civilzations of the near east as romantic fantasy worlds.

Absolutely 100% spot-on correct.

 

[Hussar]

See, to me, the problem with CSL's idea is that it is too static. There are just far too many things in D&D that can disturb that social order. Things that are pretty easily done as well.

Easy travel - flocks of hippogriffs. All it takes is one nation to start breeding hippogriffs and suddenly they become as ubiquitous as horses because they are too much of an advantage NOT to do. A small flock of 150 hippogriffs could absolutely change the face of conflict. Not to mention commerce.

For a look at what a D&D world should probably look like, I usually point to Terry Pratchett's Discworld.