How meta is too meta?

[Dandu]

 

[Legatus Legionis]

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[howandwhy99]

Metagaming is breaking the rules of a game. It's called cheating in other games.

When you look at the cards of another player in Poker, that's metagaming.

When you read the answers to the Jeopardy questions before being a contestant for Mr. Trebek, that's metagaming.

When as a participating athlete you don't pole vault in the Olympic Games, but tell the judges you did, that's metagaming.

Breaking rules is not bad in and of itself, but it changes the game difficulty.


EDIT: In D&D the most common form of metagaming is listening in on information the DM is parceling out to another player whose character is in a position to learn it when yours is not.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Metagaming is breaking the rules of a game. It's called cheating in other games.

When you look at the cards of another player in Poker, that's metagaming.

No it isn't. Metagaming is in that grey area where unsportsmanlike conduct stands.

When you start card-counting in a game of blackjack that's metagaming - not cheating, but people really don't like you using the information about the game that way. Metagaming jeapody would be to work out who was setting the questions and what sort of questions they as opposed to the other people like to set. When you make a deliberate handball in a game of football (soccer) to prevent the ball going into the back of the net on the grounds a goalkeeper has at least a chance of saving the penalty that's right on the borderline. It's using information you know about the game to give you better odds at winning in the game.

EDIT: In D&D the most common form of metagaming is listening in on information the DM is parceling out to another player whose character is in a position to learn it when yours is not.

Nope. In D&D the most common form of metagaming is to have read the monster manual and to recognise the challenges the DM is throwing at you. The second most common form of metagaming is to be genre-savvy, Scream-style and know the checklist of what not to do in a horror movie.

And there's a reason that any DM I've played with (and I as a DM) leave the room with the player for that sort of info rather than making them compartmentalise.

 

[howandwhy99]

Nope. In D&D the most common form of metagaming is to have read the monster manual and to recognise the challenges the DM is throwing at you. The second most common form of metagaming is to be genre-savvy, Scream-style and know the checklist of what not to do in a horror movie.

And there's a reason that any DM I've played with (and I as a DM) leave the room with the player for that sort of info rather than making them compartmentalise.

I think we can agree to disagree on the first point.

As to the reading of the MM, DMG, any adventure being run, etc., I agree. I was totally thinking of stuff happening at the table. I mean, we would need some scientific studies and lots of honest polling data to really get an idea of "which is the most", but gut check? Yeah, I think anything that adds up to peeking behind the screen is more common.

But that is unequivocally breaking the rules of the game. At least the one's we use.

As to the other stuff, games don't really belong to genres. What you're talking about is act of playing a game. Only using expectations from other games to lead you. Of course, there are groups of games with design similarities.

For example. When playing any of the Rails games, e.g. Australian Rails, Martian Rails, it's obvious they are largely similar in experience. But trying to win a game in the line never played before by using strategies successful from another rail game is perilous. Well, that is unless the player also doesn't actually play the current game. IOW, actually engage in the deciphering of the game (required of any gameplay), to spot clues in the different design instead using only another game's design to formulate strategy. Still, due to similarity, if you're good at one, you'll likely have some immediate ability playing the other.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think we can agree to disagree on the first point.

As to the reading of the MM, DMG, any adventure being run, etc., I agree. I was totally thinking of stuff happening at the table. I mean, we would need some scientific studies and lots of honest polling data to really get an idea of "which is the most", but gut check? Yeah, I think anything that adds up to peeking behind the screen is more common.

But that is unequivocally breaking the rules of the game. At least the one's we use.

The problem with the "Don't let the players get their hands on the DM rules" is that it's a completely unworkable rule. It means that any one group can only ever have one DM, and that DMs can't travel or ever be players. It was dropped with very good reason.

As to the other stuff, games don't really belong to genres. What you're talking about is act of playing a game. Only using expectations from other games to lead you.

Um... no. If I'm playing a game in that setting I absolutely am going to be using expectations for that setting - and I'm going to expect most of them to hold true because of fidelity ot the setting. As well as expectations about the game mechanics and family.

 

[Legatus Legionis]

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[cmad1977]

Metagaming is breaking the rules of a game. It's called cheating in other games.

When you look at the cards of another player in Poker, that's metagaming.

When you read the answers to the Jeopardy questions before being a contestant for Mr. Trebek, that's metagaming.

When as a participating athlete you don't pole vault in the Olympic Games, but tell the judges you did, that's metagaming.

Breaking rules is not bad in and of itself, but it changes the game difficulty.


EDIT: In D&D the most common form of metagaming is listening in on information the DM is parceling out to another player whose character is in a position to learn it when yours is not.

This is just false and combined with awful examples.

 

[howandwhy99]

This is just false and combined with awful examples.

Actually, Metagaming as defined in early D&D is part of player cheating. The new definition is different. As early D&D has nothing to do with expressing a personality or telling a story, that definition doesn't apply.

In D&D, a DM is parceling out information rewards to players as they play the game. Players who overhear another player's info, which is not then relayed to the other players by that player, are metagaming.

Yes, players often say they are going to tell everyone and a DM may inform other players on that player's behalf, that can speed up the game. But otherwise the default game is each player is playing separately and choosing when to cooperate (or not) individually, like sharing their experiences.

Metagaming gets in the way of fair play, but there are techniques to avoid its abuse.

 

[Maxperson]

It Came From the Late Late Show. Check it out.

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13397.phtml