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How meticulous can the planning be in a six-second combat round?

Prestidigitalis

First Post
So, for those like KarinsDad who really want tactical table talk to be in character, how would you feel if your characters created "plays" outside of combat, and then "called" those plays in combat? All in-character, of course.

I'd be happy to do this in the group I play in, but it's probably way too OCD for everyone else.
 

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KarinsDad

Adventurer
So, for those like KarinsDad who really want tactical table talk to be in character, how would you feel if your characters created "plays" outside of combat, and then "called" those plays in combat? All in-character, of course.

We did have this occur in Champions to a limited extent. It's definitely fun in a superhero game and there's obviously nothing wrong with it in character in any game. That's precisely why this occurs in many team sports, military, etc. Communicating without the enemy knowing what you are saying and communicating complex concepts quickly.
 

lud

Explorer
Maybe it's only my groups of players, but I would never compare their characters to a well oiled swat team...in both groups I DM for, characters have trust issues with one or more of the party members. And they don't take time to practice groups tactics!

I don't feel I should give them extra time to compensate for the "swat team factor"

From my point of view combat should be a stressful situation.

If they are fighting adversaries of their level, being a "heroes" doesn't change much. A group of commoners should be stressed by an angry bear, a group of heroes should be stressed by an elder dragon possessed by a creature of the far realms.

People under stress make stupid mistakes, even if they are the very best in the world with abilities the common man can't understand. If you don't buy that, please go watch a bit of the Olympics...

Limiting the amount of time players can take to analyze the situation (count squares, add up bonus, query for the number of healing power left, etc.) or plan in advance helps bring some of this stress to the table.
 


brassbaboon

First Post
I have been tempted as a DM to invoke time limits to tactical discussions. On occasion I jokingly threaten to invoke a mythical "real time is game time" rule. But I never do. Usually the joking gets things moving well enough.

Since I play and DM in about equal measure, I see both sides of the debate on this pretty clearly. As a DM I'm trying to pace the game and keep people interested and engaged. As a player I'm trying to make the best possible decision under the circumstances. These sometimes are competing priorities.

In the main group I DM the most for, we have a classic "casual gamer" player. He is never prepared (he usually forgets his dice and has even been known to forget his character sheet), he never bothers to learn his character, he constantly asks what he should be doing, and a significant amount of the time, he simply allows the group to control his character by default. We've been playing with him for several years, he's not going to change. He plays to get out of the house and spend some time with the guys. That's about it. So since he's a good friend we don't have a problem with it, although I do wish he would spend a little time learning his character and making his own decisions. I've got a lot more important things to worry about though.

I'm fairly new to 4e, I am playing my sixth session with my first 4e character tomorrow. Twice so far another player has provided guidance to me on how to better utilize my powers and skills. I was a little embarrassed to have made the mistakes I made (in one case I did not take an optimal path and so ran, he showed me a way to make the jump across the open space and reach the enemy without running, in another he reminded me that I could take a move action as a minor action and still apply my hunter's quarry to a new target). In spite of the embarrassment though, I politely thanked him and followed his advice. In both cases I could have figured it out on my own, but playing with a new group I was feeling a little pressure and wasn't thinking as clearly as I should have. I'm glad he helped because that is what my character would have done and it was better for the group.

When our group moves into battle, we have a lot of tactical crosstalk. A good chunk of it is clearly meta-gaming. Our cleric works out buffs or heals and tells another player when on the battlefield, they might be 50 feet from each other. I do feel this has a negative impact on encounter durations and I would prefer we did not have as much meta-gaming crosstalk, but I don't find that it is anything that I would raise as an issue. That's how this group works, I joined them after they had already developed habits.

In terms of "how much of a problem is it for the game?" my answer is not much at all. In general it's a minor annoyance at worst. For many situations the time lost in this sort of crosstalk is less than when a player loses a die under the table. In terms of actual game play impact and annoyance, in pretty much every game I play, players leaving the table to get a drink, hit the restroom, talk on their phone, talk to a family member, etc. are all much more disruptive to the game and irritating to the other players.
 

Destil

Explorer
Last session, for example, I announced my intentions for the next few rounds (using forced movement to split up two large enemies). Not much was said, but when, during the next few rounds, the two wizards and the cleric were trying to line up their area attacks, they were a little bugged by that decision. In my opinion, such things can be avoided by a little more table talk. If one of them had piped up and asked me to keep the two enemies a little closer together, it could have actually saved some hurt feelings, not made things worse.
I don't think anyone actually objected at the time, but after the fact it was seen as a 'bad idea'. Mostly because both of the monsters thing kept spitting out a minion in an adjacent square every round when damaged, and keeping those together may have helped.

I've seen both cases and I, as a DM, I generally try to only really find it to be an issue when more experienced/vocal/opinionated players attempt to play another player's character.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
So, for those like KarinsDad who really want tactical table talk to be in character, how would you feel if your characters created "plays" outside of combat, and then "called" those plays in combat? All in-character, of course.

I'd be happy to do this in the group I play in, but it's probably way too OCD for everyone else.
It's a cool idea, sure. Champions!, even though it allows unlimitted soliloquies, even encourages such things, for instance. But, there are obviously limits. You'd need to have all the players pretty well committed and well-drilled to make it work. OTOH, there are warlord powers that probably could be visualized as working that way - the many 'move an ally' or 'grant an ally a specific action' powers, for instance.

The question isn't whether the characters might do something like that - whether formally, or just because they know eachother well. I think the issue is whether you believe that's a character ability that you need to model, or an aspect of character personality you need to RP. If the former, you want mechanics and meta-gaming to cover it. If the latter, you want the players to aproach it immersively.
 

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