How much backlash is too much?

[haakon1]

If he can murder the Paladin he can certainly murder the local Lord and other powers-that-be.

The powers-that-be didn't get there by being wimps, especially in a D&D setting. This threat -- the loose cannon PC opening a evil portal to attack the town and then killing a paladin -- just needs to die. No BS about charging higher prices or whatnot -- the powers-that-be need to crush this threat before it comes after them.

The only question is whether the powers-that-be use:
1) the law (because they are confident enough in their power to do so),

2) a bounty hunter/another party of adventurers to do their dirty work (beyond the power of their full time staff, but not beyond the power of their ability to reward hired guns),

3) a sneaky assassination (asymmetric warfare, as the expression goes for how the weaker strike at the stronger),

4) the unsurvivable mission approach (which goes back to the Old Testament as a way to rid yourself of unwanted rivals)

I'd go with a poisoning of the PC's as the default, since the powers-that-be may be weaker -- and the PC's usually assume they are untouchably powerful, so play it like they are, except play dirtier than the PC's.

And as Machiavelli will tell you, ALL the PC's need to die, not just the offending one, or else his comrades will get the power-that-be.

So TPK 'em, or at least have the powers-that-be go for that goal, with everything they have.

"Men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge." -- Machiavelli, The Prince

"A state is a human community that successfully claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory" -- Max Weber, 1918

"Power comes out of the mouth of a gun." -- Mao Zedong

"The use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of the Blues Brothers HAS been approved." -- Illinois State Police dispatcher in "The Blues Brothers"

 

[haakon1]

So the PC is a murderer.

So, hang him.

Bury his body in a lime pit.

Burn some of his pieces so that he cannot be raised.

Roger that, Grump. Sadly, I agree with you too often to be able to give you XP.

 

[Sammael]

Roger that, Grump. Sadly, I agree with you too often to be able to give you XP.

Likewise.

 

[haakon1]

The town constable is 4 levels higher than the swordsage and has several deputies. He could easily incarcerate the swordsage, but I know it would end in a bloodbath leaving the PC dead.

I wouldn't go with a super-powerful constable, SuperJebba.

I'd go with a Constable consistent with the setting. For me, if it's a small town, probably 3rd or 4th level (using pre-4e levels), with 1st-2nd level deputies.

Can the PC's easily defeat him and his deputies? Probably. And let them. That's fine.

But it will just convince the powers-that-be, or their superiors, that the PC's need to be killed. The first shoot-to-kill attempt may also fail, but the powers-that-be have many resources and long memories, do they not?

 

[S'mon]

The powers-that-be didn't get there by being wimps, especially in a D&D setting. This threat -- the loose cannon PC opening a evil portal to attack the town and then killing a paladin -- just needs to die. No BS about charging higher prices or whatnot -- the powers-that-be need to crush this threat before it comes after them.

Yes, that would be how I'd run it. But I don't normally see Evil PCs commit murder (or demonic-gate-opening) in a locale and then just hang around for the inevitable revenge hit; the PCs know to get out of Dodge right away.

 

[LostSoul]

(From the constable's point of view) Killing the outlaws seems dangerous. They haven't really challenged your authority; they've killed a paladin who was giving them a hard time, but that paladin wasn't part of your band or the village. If you don't deal with them you'll lose some face, but if you move against them you could lose or end up with a pyrrhic victory.

Try to get them to work for you. Use them as tools; discard them when they get too dangerous (hopefully they will trust you by that point). You have some leverage: you can cover up the murder. (You don't have to cover up the murder at this point. You have some time to play with.)

 

[kitsune9]

SuperJebba,

Here's my take from a gaming perspective.

After the murder, some of the villagers go out of the tavern screaming, "Murder! Murder!" Any village constables come and arrest the swordmage. Also, if there were any surviving members of the LG group, they would be going with the constable(s).

The swordmage would be placed under arrest, but given most players reactions, they would refuse without a fight. If the other players get involve, they will considered accomplices and then it's a fight. If the NPCs get beaten, they will likely try to retreat and regroup or if the PC's are blood-thirsty, they won't let them escape.

Then you have to think as to what will happen next--is the village organized to form a defense against raiders or outside threats? If so, that same defense will be mounted against the PC's though it could be as simple as a mob with pitchforks and torches to able-bodied defenders grabbing their longsword and shields at home and coming to the aid of the village bell ringing. Since there is an NPC wizard, I'm sure that the local temple will also come to the village's defense.

If there is no such defense, people will flee, lock their doors, and plead with the PC's to spare their lives allowing them to take whatever they want for now. However, those who can flee will send riders to the local baron or garrison about the lawless PC's. A bounty will be placed on their heads and regular troops will be sent, but should the PC's prove really capable, then they will face adventuring parties, and then face higher level adventuring parties.

Sooner or later, the PC's will have a reputation of wanton and bloody violent criminals. Eventually, the kingdom will put its resources together to deal with the problem once and for all or the PC's will emerge victorious.

Now here's my take from a mechanic perspective.

If you don't like evil PC's, why did you let your players create them to begin with? This would be something that as a DM, I would just ban at the beginning of the campaign because these are the kind of issues that I would not rather prefer dealing with.

I had a group of players that were supposedly neutral in their alignments, but they were being very boorish and felt like they could whatever they want in the village. So they started killing for insults or laws that they didn't want to follow. They had bounties placed on their heads and I was going to have higher powered NPCs go after them but I had dropped the group because of their rampant cheating.

Anyways, good luck with your campaign!

 

[NanocTheCivilized]

Why not post a reward or bounty (dead or alive)?

Make it something that would tempt the other PCs to turn their buddy in. A cash sum, perhaps, plus a choice magic item (donated by the paladin's church). This is an evil/chaotic party, so they should be easily tempted: and even if they aren't the character (and his player) will have itchy shoulder blades for a while...

Cheers
Nanoc

 

[haakon1]

(From the constable's point of view) Killing the outlaws seems dangerous. They haven't really challenged your authority

Yes, they have.

Murder is not a crime against an individual.

It's a crime against the community, and most importantly from the point of view of the state, a crime against the authority of the state, its monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.

That's why murder cases aren't called "Dead Guy v. Murdering Swordsage", like a civil suit.

Nope, criminal cases are "The Crown v. Murdering Swordsage" in the UK, or "The State of New York v. Murdering Swordsage" in a US state (in this case, NYS).

I don't know what you call it in Canada, but I'm sure it's the same principal. Criminal cases are about the state prosecuting the offenders who have violate the rule of law imposed by the state, enforced by the duly appointed constables -- whose armor isn't their masterwork chainshirt, it's the authority of Leviathan, which is why they don't need to be high level/British cops don't need to carry guns -- and with final judgment from the duly appointed representatives of the Crown, possibly with a jury of regular community members to increase the legitimacy of the sentence, if the culture says that's needed.

Once more with feeling, Max Weber's definition of the state, still the standard in political science 100 years after it was written:

"A state is a human community that successfully claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory."

 

[LostSoul]

When the state is a handful of guys in the middle of a monster-infested wilderness, you have to choose your battles.

If the PCs killed a villager's goat, that would be one thing; in this case, there was a fight between two strangers. One used excessive force, killing the other. You don't want to let people think they can get away with random violence in your town, but it's not like the stranger who was killed was part of the community.

Do you really want to risk your life and the lives of your (all-too-few) men to get justice for a crazed stranger who attacked another stranger? Don't forget, if you lose too many resources, the village will fall.

All you really need from the PCs is for them to show the villagers that they respect your authority, even if they don't. A simple fine - 100 GP, a lot of cash to your average peasant - could do it. Your leverage over the PCs is that you can cover up the murder when more paladins show up. Not that you have to cover up the crime; you can lie to the PCs. Blackmail is great as long as it's more efficient for the PCs to keep paying instead of killing you.