D&D General How much control do DMs need?

My D&D character can take an average of fifteen unmodified swordblows with no ill effect. He can fall any distance with no chance of death or long term injury.

Except he's not getting stabbed fifteen times. He's getting a bit strained from avoiding the brunt of the blow, bruised as the blow deflects off his armor or suffering minor scratches.

Nobody says D&D simulates the real world any more than action hero movies do. But there's a difference between James Bond surviving against all odds and Bugs Bunny ignoring gravity because he didn't study law.
 

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@pemerton out of interest

The bold part - Is that work done between player and DM or can the entire table chip in? Am I correct in imagining that this procedure takes time at the table as different thoughts/ideas are suggested by the participants, picking out of the favourites and checking them against story already established at the table for consistency purposes?
I'm imagining 5-10 minutes, perhaps longer as the campaign progresses?
Here are the difficulties for a Wise check:

Common knowledge of the subject, Ob 1; an interesting fact, Ob 2; details, Ob 3; uncommon knowledge, Ob 4; rare details, Ob 5; bizarre or obscure details, Ob 7; freaky or specific details, Ob 8​

If there's uncertainty about which obstacle applies to a particular declared check, that can be the topic for a table discussion. The GM is the one with final responsibility for setting obstacles.

In the case of Evard's tower, I can't now recall whether we agreed that the location of one of the great masters' towers was an Interesting Fact (Ob 2) or a point of Detail (Ob 3). I don't recall how long it took, but I'd doubt it was 10 minutes, or even 5.
 

I think a lot of people prefer the feeling that there is objective fictional reality that matters, and thus the DW approach might rub them up the wrong way.
I don't know what work you intend "that matters" to do - the fiction in DW matters. From experience, I'm confident that the fiction in Burning Wheel play is, by default, more intense than the fiction in exploration-oriented D&D play.

In both systems, and especially in DW, the fiction is also fundamentally significant for framing and adjudication. It's notorious, for instance, that some D&D combats unfold with only dice rolls and adjustments to hit point totals, and perhaps the location of tokens on a grid, with no reference to shared imagination at all. That can't happen in DW. (It can happen in some, though not all, of BW's complex resolution subsystems.)

Anyway, I don't know of anyone who plays RPG and doesn't want the fiction to matter.

What is not a part of DW or BW play is the players "poking" at the setting to find out what its author (the GM) really intends it to be, or has decided that it really is. You don't declare "I open the door" in order to find out what the GM has decided is behind it. It's not part of the point of play to discover the content of someone else's imagination.

That's not to say that in DW or BW play you don't discover the content of others' imaginations. From time to time you do. But that's a means to an end, not an end in itself. It's not what play is for.

This is interesting... I was always under the impression from previous discussions that a game like DW wasn't supposed to rely on secret DM knowledge or pre-determination of facts and prep... but it seems here you are saying it does in fact allow for that (in fact you seem to be claiming it must contain such). Am I perhaps confusing this witrh Forged in the Dark, and/or is this just one of two (or more ) ways DW can be ran?
As far as I know, DW's approach to prep closely follows AW's. I posted some of the relevant text in another recent thread:

Vincent Baker is clear about the purpose of Fronts, so we don't need to guess or speculate. The AW rulebook says (p 136):

A front has some apparently mechanical components, but it’s fundamentally conceptual, not mechanical. The purpose of your prep is to give you interesting things to say.​

He goes on:

As MC you’re going to be playing your fronts, playing your threats, but that doesn’t mean anything mechanical. It means saying what they do. It means offering opportunities to the players to have their characters do interesting things, and it means responding in interesting ways to what the players have their characters do.​

He also says the following (pp 109, 136):

ALWAYS SAY​
• What the principles demand (as follow).​
• What the rules demand.​
• What your prep demands.​
• What honesty demands. . . .​
Creating a front means making decisions about backstory and about NPC motivations. Real decisions, binding ones, that call for creativity, attention and care. You do it outside of play, between sessions, so that you have the time and space to think.​

Preparation of fronts doesn't change how any move is resolved (though it may introduce a custom move, which typically will be in lieu of what would otherwise be a GM soft move, or perhaps the more generic Acting Under Fire). It certainly doesn't dictate how any move is resolved. It does bind the GM, by reference to prep, as to what interesting things ("badness", "spots" and "opportunities", in the AW parlance) the GM introduces into the fiction.
Vincent Baker says the following about how to author Fronts (from AW p 136):

[W]hen you create a front, follow your own inspiration. Choose the things that are suggestive to you, that put you in mind of apocalyptica, romance, violence, gore, danger, trauma. Choose the things you’d just <expletive deleted> kill to see well done on the big screen, and skip the things that don’t spark your interest.​

That said, he also says this (on the same page):

Creating a front means making decisions about backstory and about NPC motivations. Real decisions, binding ones, that call for creativity, attention and care. You do it outside of play, between sessions, so that you have the time and space to think.​

So whim ("inspiration") is expected to play a role, but not be all of it. Attention and care are also important, because this stuff is binding.
The difference between prep in DW/AW, of the sort Vincent Baker is discussing in the passages I've quoted, and the sort of prep advocated in D&D as I take it to be widely played, is this:

In D&D, a GM can decide a consequence - including a hard move - on the basis of their prep. To put the same point in a slightly different way, the GM can decide that something is not uncertain, and hence does not warrant a check, by reference to their prep.​
In DW/AW, prep is a reservoir of material for making soft moves and hard moves, but it does not change the rules about when such moves can be made.​

Prepping a front in DW/AW is a particular process that doesn't include things like (say) deciding that a particular person is immune to being swayed. It might include deciding (say) that a particular person wants a particular sort of thing. That prep might then inform the answer to a question asked on a successful attempt to Read a Person (say, "how could I get your character to __?") or might inform what the GM decides a NPC askes for if successfully Seduced/Manipulated ("When you try to seduce or manipulate someone, tell them what you want and roll+hot. For NPCs: on a hit, they ask you to promise something first, and do it if you promise. On a 10+, whether you keep your promise is up to you, later. On a 7–9, they need some concrete assurance right now.").
 

Personally I find systems where the external reality doesn't affect the difficulty of the task super jarring. Reality doesn't work that way.
But is D&D having different levels of difficulty really an issue? After all, some tasks should be far more difficult than others. If I pick up my cat, it's not an issue (okay, one of my cats is quite chunky but that's a different issue). But if a large box shows up from Amazon that my wife ordered it could either be lighter than my cat or practically hernia inducing.
As @AbdulAlhazred explained, there is no problem with DW giving effect to the difference between lifting a little cat and lifting a heavy box. But it doesn't do it via the difficulty of the dice roll.

Notice that D&D doesn't treat the difficult of avoiding damage from being struck with a house cat compared to being struck by a heavy box by changing the difficulty of the dice roll either. It uses a constant to hit target ("AC") and then uses a different dimension of resolution (damage dice and hp loss) to track the severity.

When it comes to lifting the box vs lifting the cat, DW/AW doesn't use a hit point metric but simply goes straight to the fiction and what is at stake. (Both use a type of hp system for injury from blows, explosions, being shot, etc.)
 

As @AbdulAlhazred explained, there is no problem with DW giving effect to the difference between lifting a little cat and lifting a heavy box. But it doesn't do it via the difficulty of the dice roll.
Then how?

Notice that D&D doesn't treat the difficult of avoiding damage from being struck with a house cat compared to being struck by a heavy box by changing the difficulty of the dice roll either. It uses a constant to hit target ("AC") and then uses a different dimension of resolution (damage dice and hp loss) to track the severity.
Different attacks in D&D actually have different attack bonuses, thus it it is not equally easy to avoid them.

When it comes to lifting the box vs lifting the cat, DW/AW doesn't use a hit point metric but simply goes straight to the fiction and what is at stake.
What does this mean?
 

I don't know what work you intend "that matters" to do - the fiction in DW matters. From experience, I'm confident that the fiction in Burning Wheel play is, by default, more intense than the fiction in exploration-oriented D&D play.

In both systems, and especially in DW, the fiction is also fundamentally significant for framing and adjudication. It's notorious, for instance, that some D&D combats unfold with only dice rolls and adjustments to hit point totals, and perhaps the location of tokens on a grid, with no reference to shared imagination at all. That can't happen in DW. (It can happen in some, though not all, of BW's complex resolution subsystems.)

Anyway, I don't know of anyone who plays RPG and doesn't want the fiction to matter.

I specifically said "fictional reality" not just "fiction."

What is not a part of DW or BW play is the players "poking" at the setting to find out what its author (the GM) really intends it to be, or has decided that it really is. You don't declare "I open the door" in order to find out what the GM has decided is behind it. It's not part of the point of play to discover the content of someone else's imagination.

Right. And some (I'd wager most) people prefer such explorable, objective reality to exist in the game.

The difference between prep in DW/AW, of the sort Vincent Baker is discussing in the passages I've quoted, and the sort of prep advocated in D&D as I take it to be widely played, is this:

In D&D, a GM can decide a consequence - including a hard move - on the basis of their prep. To put the same point in a slightly different way, the GM can decide that something is not uncertain, and hence does not warrant a check, by reference to their prep.​
In DW/AW, prep is a reservoir of material for making soft moves and hard moves, but it does not change the rules about when such moves can be made.​

Prepping a front in DW/AW is a particular process that doesn't include things like (say) deciding that a particular person is immune to being swayed. It might include deciding (say) that a particular person wants a particular sort of thing. That prep might then inform the answer to a question asked on a successful attempt to Read a Person (say, "how could I get your character to __?") or might inform what the GM decides a NPC askes for if successfully Seduced/Manipulated ("When you try to seduce or manipulate someone, tell them what you want and roll+hot. For NPCs: on a hit, they ask you to promise something first, and do it if you promise. On a 10+, whether you keep your promise is up to you, later. On a 7–9, they need some concrete assurance right now.").

Right. I'd D&D the prep generally has more teeth which makes the fictional reality more "real."
 

Preparing fronts in DW has relatively little in common with (say) writing up an adventure like Keep on the Borderlands or The Sunless Citadel. I mean, both are types of GM prep for a RPG, and both involve imagining some stuff - but what is prepared, how it is prepared, and its role in framing actions and resolving declared actions is completely different.

And @loverdrive and I have explained why we prefer other RPGs.

My disagreement with you is in respect of your assertion that DW is just like D&D but with lower fidelity of resolution.

As far as I can tell you're using specific forge waffle terms or game specific terms and expect everyone else to use the same coded word meanings. Because a lot of what you say doesn't really translate into normal English. I'm not saying this as an insult or slight, it's just that it makes it nearly impossible to conduct a conversation since there is no way I'm going to take the time to understand all the terms you use. I don't have the opportunity, nor the desire, to play DW in order to speak in detail about that particular game.

I like that in D&D there is an objective fictional world and that when I am running a PC I can only change that fictional world in the manner that my PC could. When I DM if there's a chasm, it's because of my vision of the environment it makes sense. It's not necessarily there because I expect the PCs to cross it, it could easily just be descriptive fluff and they're doing something I don't expect. I may or may not be thinking in terms of creating challenge when I added the chasm, it simply exists whether the PCs interact with it or not. The players can decide their PCs are going to to cross the chasm and the capabilities of their PCs reflect how they can achieve that. For me that feels more like the real world, or at least an action movie version of reality.

I prefer the way that D&D handles obstacles that we do have to overcome. My options to overcome an obstacle depend on my PC's capabilities. The difficulty of overcoming that obstacle is not arbitrary as some people claim, it's based on a judgement call by a DM on how difficulty something should be based on the guidance in the DMG or, in the case of contests, the capabilities of the opposition.

That's why I think the DM having ultimate authority over the world my PC interacts with works for me, and for a lot of people. I can relate to the fact that I don't directly control what my cat does, even if I can sometimes modify that behavior. Just like my PC can interact with the fictional world around them but not invent it.
 

For me this continues to miss the distinction. Maybe because it's hard to really get at what one means by objective. As a poster notes upthread


There's a sense I think that objective means a world that doesn't inherently care about the player characters. It's not inspired by them and doesn't spin out of them. The converse is true. This is a place that can contain that which the players might never have dwelt upon.
If the players never dwell upon it and it never comes up in play, does it even matter?

We tell stories not about Jane Average who worked uneventfully as an accountant for 50 years, retired to Florida, and passed away in her sleep at age 85, but about exciting people whose lives are full of adventure and drama and mystery. It's not that the world cares about the adventurers. It's that our window into that world is only going to focus on characters whose lives are interesting enough to focus on in the first place. Comics are about Bruce Wayne and Batman because those people are the ones constantly doing story-worthy things. RPGs are about adventurers, because we play them for adventure.

Edit:Looping back to my actual game and the example I gave, there was a murder. My players were in a Jinnistani city (Mt. Matahat, ruled by four earth genie siblings) looking to curry favor with one of the rulers to secure legitimate travel papers so people wouldn't ask dangerous questions about some of their allies. (The allies are perfectly good people, but the place they come from is dangerous, so not letting folks know exactly where they hail from is important.) As things evolved, it became clear that they were getting roped into the courtly machinations, with the elder brother of the four trying to usurp his elder sister earlier than would normally be the case for their weird round-robin rulership structure. So to get plausible deniability, he had the party aid his brother and then ask for an invitation to a party as their boon for aiding the brother.

At the masquerade ball, I felt inspired to do a murder mystery. It sounded like a good time and something my players would get a kick out of. The party would be able to investigate (as outsiders, whose positions were all well known throughout the evening prior to discovering the body, they were the most impartial investigators present on the grounds, and thus the ruling Padishah Sultana appointed them her questers...but if they couldn't figure it out on time, she would go with the most likely suspect.

Making the mystery fair and meaningful, to my eyes, meant that there had to be a truth of the matter. One cause of death, one or more specific perpetrators, clues that were actually fake vs fully legitimate, etc. Poor decisions could cost the players critical information. Wise decisions could let them figure things out faster and maybe resolve the issue without a major diplomatic incident.

In what ways is this not "objective" in the way you describe?
 
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If the players never dwell upon it and it never comes up in play, does it even matter?

We tell stories not about Jane Average who worked uneventfully as an accountant for 50 years, retired to Florida, and passed away in her sleep at age 85, but about exciting people whose lives are full of adventure and drama and mystery. It's not that the world cares about the adventurers. It's that our window into that world is only going to focus on characters whose lives are interesting enough to focus on in the first place. Comics are about Bruce Wayne and Batman because those people are the ones constantly doing story-worthy things. RPGs are about adventurers, because we play them for adventure.

But...How do you know if the players will or won't dwell on it/bring it up if it's never included because you don't think the players will dwell on it or bring it up. I've seen too many times, where my players latch on to something I thought was a minor npc, detail, place or monster and it becomes more because they decided it would. Why wouldn't I want to enable that choice for them?
 

1. Nothing, if there's nothing substantial to be accomplished. You just say what you want to say and the other character responds: saying "Hi" to a friend; contemplating about the nature of free will while gazing upon the false sun; etc

2. Auto Success if there's something to be accomplished, but it's not interesting enough to drag out:
Persuasion/Intimidation/Deception roll: if it's an obstacle to, well, overcome: persuading the bouncer to let you into the bar; getting your ma to let you sleep over at friend's house; etc
Insight roll: To uncover characteristics of the NPC in order to use them as an advantage in further conversation
Change attitude If the goal is to increase your standing/status in a positive way with the NPC
Aiding the check: Allowing other characters to contribute to a conversation in order to help an ally
Multiple checks: If a more prolonged or drawn out conversation is in order or if the PC's want to achieve multiple goals
Spells, supernatural abilities, : To attack or defend with words
Persuasion/Intimidation/Deception: To stop a confrontation

General ways to handle situations in D&D
1. Single Check
2. Group Check
3. Passive Check
4. Savings Throw
5. Working Together
6. Skills w/different attributes
7. Multiple Checks
8. Combat (easily adaptable to social combat)

And these are just off the top of my head...
OK, soo... How would you condense a dangerous fight that isn't narratively important enough for full-blown initiative format?


(And, no, spells and supernatural abilities isn't attacking with words, it's attacking with magic. You are not hurting the other person emotionally or socially)
 

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