D&D General How much control do DMs need?

[Lanefan]

Wow, my experience is nothing like this, at least not since school. Get better players would be my advice. Or older players, possibly.

Or just let things happen as they will. "Maturity" is sometimes very highly overrated as a quality, particularly when it comes to games of imagination.

One thing I don't get, how is it these people can't be trusted not to wreck the game with this authority when they're players, but once they put the GM hat on suddenly they are paragons of good judgement?

I've seen players in the past who I'd never want to play with or DM for again, but if those same people were to run a game I'd be in like Flynn (time permitting).

Flip side: I've seen some people who are excellent as players fail miserably at DMing and whose games I'd decline to join even if invited.

 

[soviet]

Or just let things happen as they will. "Maturity" is sometimes very highly overrated as a quality, particularly when it comes to games of imagination.

Well sure in principle, but here they were saying it would wreck their game.

EDIT: mixed up who said what!

 

[Oofta]

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This is a strawman, I haven't seen anyone say anything even slightly close to this. Can you give me some examples?


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Well, posts like the following are pretty condescending of people who prefer a referee

Most of the people who advocate for less GM control, or who write games like that, are GMs themselves. That's how they know it works.

If you don't want people to think that you believe that referees are bad an unnecessary and only used by people who don't know better perhaps dial back the rhetoric a bit.

 

[soviet]

Well, posts like the following are pretty condescending of people who prefer a referee

If you don't want people to think that you believe that referees are bad an unnecessary and only used by people who don't know better perhaps dial back the rhetoric a bit.

The post you quoted literally says nothing about referees being bad or unnecessary. Literally nothing.

 

[Manbearcat]

Well, posts like the following are pretty condescending of people who prefer a referee

If you don't want people to think that you believe that referees are bad an unnecessary and only used by people who don't know better perhaps dial back the rhetoric a bit.

I don't understand your issue with that post?

That post isn't making a statement about referees being bad or games that feature more GM control are bad. Its not even near that ballpark.

@soviet is just saying "folks who run games that feature less GM control know those games work because their time running them is a counterfactual to the claim that those games don't work!"

I can't figure your offense here? Is it offensive for someone to say those games work (and I know it because I run them)? Cause that is all that is being said.

EDIT - cross-posted with soviet

 

[overgeeked]

Within the moment-to-moment run of play, you're mostly right.

I'll say this, though: there have been sessions where afterwards I've said to myself pretty much "...man, I really feel like my net contribution to that session wasn't very consequential.", except in a positive way rather than negative. Usually, those were the sessions where they spent the entire time arguing (or fighting) with each other in character while I just sat back, put my feet up, and occasionally processed rules.

GM control, however, can extend far beyond the moment's run of play to include system choice, houserules, expected (or demanded!) playstyle, fudging, rules enforcement (or not), session scheduling and siting, and lots more.

Exactly.

It makes games run infinitely smoother if there is a referee present, even if they sit back and let the players run free 99% of the time. When things bog down, the referee can prod the group back into action. When there’s a rules question, they can answer it. Running a game by committee sounds like a nightmare. But, I love horror games, so I can appreciate liking things others find distasteful.

I get that it works for some. But it’s never worked for me any of the times I’ve tried. The impression I get from the other side if this, those who find FKR impossible on its face, isn’t one of “we tried it and it doesn’t work for us” rather a knee jerk “that’s impossible” and simply repeating it ad nauseam as if it were true. If you haven’t tried it, stop saying it’s impossible. Give it an honest, good faith shot. If you don’t like it, cool.

 

[Oofta]

The post you quoted literally says nothing about referees being bad or unnecessary. Literally nothing.

A post that directly pokes fun at people who like referees, that basically says "Only ignorant people who don't know any better believe referees are a good thing." is not saying that?

If that's not the intent, fine. Edit the post, delete the gif. Because whether it's the intent it is what you are saying.

 

[Oofta]

I don't understand your issue with that post?

That post isn't making a statement about referees being bad or games that feature more GM control are bad. Its not even near that ballpark.

@soviet is just saying "folks who run games that feature less GM control know those games work because their time running them is a counterfactual to the claim that those games don't work!"

I can't figure your offense here? Is it offensive for someone to say those games work (and I know it because I run them)? Cause that is all that is being said.

EDIT - cross-posted with soviet

Obviously some games aren't designed to have an overall referee. Nobody has said otherwise. What people have said is that the role of the referee rotates in some games. In my experience in committees is that someone eventually ends being the referee anyway if anything is to be accomplished.

 

[soviet]

A post that directly pokes fun at people who like referees, that basically says "Only ignorant people who don't know any better believe referees are a good thing." is not saying that?

If that's not the intent, fine. Edit the post, delete the gif. Because whether it's the intent it is what you are saying.

I'm not going to edit or delete anything. My post does not say what you are reading into it.

 

[Oofta]

I'm not going to edit or delete anything. My post does not say what you are reading into it.

I don't see any other way to take it.