How much do PCs know about monsters?

hong

WotC's bitch
Re: Re: How much do PCs know about monsters?

Hypersmurf said:


Definitely not :)

They may have heard stories. They have quite possibly heard that trolls are all but impossible to kill without fire. But in a society without cameras and televisions, how certain is it that a fourth level character (for example) will know what a troll looks like?

Quite likely, I would say. I think of 4th level characters as relative veterans. They've been around and they've fought enough monsters (or talked with enough people who've fought monsters) to have at least a fair chance of distinguishing an ogre from a troll. A 1st level warrior might be a better example of a complete neophye who knows what orcs are, but nothing else.

I second SableWyvern's suggestion about letting the players use all their MM knowledge, but changing the details slightly for important monster races.

Another possible rule of thumb might be that the characters know at least gross details about monsters up to their level in CR, but no higher. To do that, you need to go looking for the information in-game.
 

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Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
Re: Re: Re: How much do PCs know about monsters?

Quite likely, I would say. I think of 4th level characters as relative veterans. They've been around and they've fought enough monsters (or talked with enough people who've fought monsters) to have at least a fair chance of distinguishing an ogre from a troll. A 1st level warrior might be a better example of a complete neophye who knows what orcs are, but nothing else.

I'm just thinking about what my group had come across by 4th level.

Kobolds and Dire Weasels.
Darkmantle.
Shocker Lizard.
Rust Monster.
Carnivorous Flying Black Dire Weresquirrel.
Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Bugbear.
Skeletons, Zombies, and Wights.
Gelatinous Cube.
Assorted animals and vermin.

They'd been into a kobold lair and a goblin-occupied evil temple, over the space of about two game-months. And they haven't done much talking to bards or veterans in that time.

As far as I'm concerned, they'll know that ogres and trolls are big and dangerous... but faced with one suddenly, I don't think they should necessarily be able to automatically get the identification correct...

-Hyp.
 

Arkham

First Post
What Elder-Basilisk said.

It really depends upon the monsters and the area.
In my next campaign starting up next weekend,
everyone knows what Gnolls, Orcs, Kobolds, and
Ogres look like and what they are generally
capable of. This is because there are significant
populations of these nearby that the inhabitants
of their city have had to deal with for many,
many generations.

But if they saw a Troll, they might recognize it
as related to an Ogre, but it is so obviously
_not_ an Ogre. But they would not know what to
_do_ with it to keep it down.

But there is no goblin populace, so some might
mistake one, were they to come across one, as
an adolescent orc, or some twisted orc/kobold
crossbreed.
 

Dingleberry

First Post
I recently added a Knowledge: Monsters skill for my PCs (I treat it as a class skill for all classes). Similar to Perform, for every rank the PC has, he designates a category of monsters (based on the Monster Manual categories, e.g., magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, undead). The PC can make a Knowledge: Monsters check to identify a monster and possibly some basic characteristics (e.g., "you think that's a troll, and from the stories you've heard, normal weapons don't do much to hurt them"), but the information the PC knows about a monster from a chosen category is much more detailed (e.g., "you're quite sure that's a troll, and you've heard that fire is an effective weapon against a troll").

We don't have a ranger in the party, but I suspect I would give rangers "free" categories under Knowledge: Monsters for their favored enemies.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Re: Re: Re: Re: How much do PCs know about monsters?

Hypersmurf said:

They'd been into a kobold lair and a goblin-occupied evil temple, over the space of about two game-months. And they haven't done much talking to bards or veterans in that time.

Downtime is indeterminate.
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How much do PCs know about monsters?

Downtime is indeterminate.

They haven't had any downtime, and if they had, I would have determined it.

Knowing what phase of the moon it is is important when one of the PCs has contracted Lycanthropy...

-Hyp.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How much do PCs know about monsters?

Hypersmurf said:


They haven't had any downtime, and if they had, I would have determined it.

Do you keep time sheets for your characters' visits to the bathroom?
 

Voadam

Legend
There are a couple of ways to deal with PC knowledge.

One, as already has been mentioned, is to declare that characters know what players know but as general myth and hearsay. This is easy to implement and does not require players to roleplay detrimental actions. This allows players to roleplay being "professional adventurers" who are experts at what they do.

If you play a combat and dungeon oriented game style or if the players are supposed to be heroically competent (including their knowledge and expertise), then this works well and will keep the action going and mood consistent.

Another is to say to the players from the beginning, "I want everybody to roleplay only knowledge that is appropriate for their character." then it is up to them to say what from their background, knowledges, or class abilities provides them with metagame knowledge. I.e., "my background includes having fought in the war against the conjurer's fiend army." or "I am a ranger with favored enemy X" or "I have an applicable knowledge skill," or "we just fought these things a month ago, remember?" or "I'm a drow, we used to have bugbears as slaves, of course I know what they look like, the filthy beasts" or "I am a bard."

The advantage to this is there is more roleplay immersion, more ingame character talk, and more thought about characters.

If you go with the die rolling knowledge checks then you will still have the situation of PCs who know information who do not have the skill or fail the roll. Also you then have them using the skills to provide information about monsters they don't know about as PCs ("what weapons and attacks are good against devils versus demons, I have planar knowledge, but not the MM). or "Is that an aberration or a demon? I have knowledge planar."

The main problems with not allowing PCs to use knowledge about monsters is when PCs confront Trolls, Rust Monsters, and Rakshasa, for the first time.

I would say it is probably a good idea to either allow the characters to know in character or to set up a situation where they are informed about these "classic" niche tactic D&D creatures before they meet them. "We want your aid in overthrowing the corrupt rajah, we believe he is in fact a rakshasa! What? You have never heard of the rakshasa? They are masters of illusion and magic, but it is said they have a vulnerability to divinely blessed crossbow bolts. . ."

Otherwise you have out of character actions, or unhappy players getting trashed while holding one hand behind their backs.

There is little more mood breaking than a player acting out of character and a DM saying "You don't know that and you can't do that"

It can be fun to roleplay finding out about a creature, there is usually some campaign or world specific informaiton that makes the creature new to you in some way or that brings it more fully to life. It can also be fun to roleplay how a developed consistent personality for a character interacts with a new creature "I Hit it with my GreatAxe! RAAARGH!"

Of course, As a DM I would always recommend describing creatures physically instead of by name. It gets the PCs into the feel of the fight and game more viscerally and can lead to some amusing confusion or even to characters renaming monsters. I've had soloing PCs get terminology wrong (bugbears vs. owlbears) or typing "A big batwinged fear radiating [pit] fiend eh?, I think I recognize that as the most badass demon from the book, lets see, they are chaotic and from the abyss, I'll have to remember that in my flattery."

I also do not let characters use the MM, srd or other DM sourcebooks in a game unless they have an in character reason to do so (I've had past characters find the Van Richten's guides, for instance).
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How much do PCs know about monsters?

Do you keep time sheets for your characters' visits to the bathroom?

No, I just make sure there are no bards or veterans in there with them :)

-Hyp.
 

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