How much effect on ECL should Fast Healing have?

[CRGreathouse]

The gains after Level 40 must be arithmatic, or the system breaks down almost instantly. Using the PROPER formula, a Level 66 character would only have a little over 22,000,000 wealth. This is how you balance things.

U_K, is this how your system works? If so, I'll have to change my opinion again...

This is so confusing. I can't tell if the system is or is not compatible! Here, let me define more terms regarding CR:
Fully compatible: ukCR = wotcCR
Mostly compatible: ukCR != wotcCR, but ukECL (ukCR) = wotcCR
Incompatible: ukCR != wotcCR, and ukECL (ukCR) != wotcCR

I've known the system aren't fully compatible, but I've been recently convinced that they're mostly compatible (that is, they work together with just a bit of effort). If the wealth systems are that different, conversion won't be possible by any simple formula and they're just 'too different' for me.

 

[poilbrun]

Another question regarding ECL: will the modifier for an ability be the same for monsters and NPC? For example, an ability to cast a spell (let's say an offensive spell, like fireball or disintegrate) once per hour or once per year would have the same modifier for a monster since it effectively boils down to the same things (he'll only be able to cast it once during the fight with the PC's), but the modifier would be very different for a PC, since int he first case, the spell will probably be used in every fight, whereas in the other case, it will only be used rarely... Any thought on this?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

U_K, is this how your system works? If so, I'll have to change my opinion again...

...but that quote is from Anubis!?

Also hes refering to his own ideas on extrapolating the epic wealth chart above level forty; which I don't agree with anyway.

This is so confusing.

You appear to be confusing yourself mate.

I can't tell if the system is or is not compatible!

Instead of asking if it is compatible you should be asking why does my method differ.

I've known the system aren't fully compatible, but I've been recently convinced that they're mostly compatible (that is, they work together with just a bit of effort).

Here, let me define more terms regarding CR:
Fully compatible: ukCR = wotcCR
Mostly compatible: ukCR != wotcCR, but ukECL (ukCR) = wotcCR
Incompatible: ukCR != wotcCR, and ukECL (ukCR) != wotcCR

Okay now I'm starting to get confused!

Let me try and explain a few things:

1. +1 ukECL = 1 Character Level

So if an Arcturian Megadonkey is +36 ukECL then its the equivalent of adding 36 character levels.

2. +'#+4' ukCR = x4 '#' ukCR

So a CR36 = x4 CR32 = x16 CR28 etc.

If the wealth systems are that different, conversion won't be possible by any simple formula and they're just 'too different' for me.

As you know WotC don't have any formula for wealth.

As far as I can tell my simple wealth system equates to the current WotC table though. It has nothing to do with Anubis lyrical waxing.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi poilbrun mate!

Another question regarding ECL: will the modifier for an ability be the same for monsters and NPC?

Yes. Although some abilities will have a second figure for PCs under 20th-level.

For example, an ability to cast a spell (let's say an offensive spell, like fireball or disintegrate) once per hour or once per year would have the same modifier for a monster since it effectively boils down to the same things (he'll only be able to cast it once during the fight with the PC's), but the modifier would be very different for a PC, since int he first case, the spell will probably be used in every fight, whereas in the other case, it will only be used rarely... Any thought on this?

The modifiers for characters above CR20 are the same regardless.

 

[Anubis]

I was using the example to justify WotCs Challenge Ratings.

You use one broken system to justify another broken system?

Actually as far as I can tell its about 1.5 billion at 115th-level.

Your system is

(ECL^4)*5

correct?

Well . . .

(115^4)*5 = 874,503,125

I have been giving this whole idea some thought and to be honest its not the wealth thats the problem but rather the 'converting wealth into items' aspect.

So now you're the one advocating the use of Rule 0 and DM Discretion where a system should be in place?

Look, you can't just Rule 0 the matter or force DM Discretion, not in this case. Allow me to explain . . .

The treasure per encounter is extrapolated directly from the wealth tables. As such, that means that treasure found by characters will make up the greatest portion of that character's wealth. You seem to assume that ALL items made by higher level characters would be created by the party spellcaster when, in fact, most items will have been found through adventuring. Of course a character with 800,000,000 wealth didn't create most of his items! No, he FOUND those items on adventures.

THAT is the premise behind the wealth calculations. Indeed, many items will be created, but MOST will be found. That is why characters are allowed to spend the wealth as per the guidelines in the ELH. That's why there is a limit of no items worth more than 25% of wealth, and only three worth more than 10%. It's because characters FIND most items. That also means that a DM simply can't say "you can't have that" if that item is well within the wealth guidelines set forth in ALL the rules that have been released thus far.

I love how you make these sweeping generalisations!

Allow me to correct myself. "The character could easily defeat any deity found in Deities & Demigods."

...I wonder who discovered that?

So then why do you not take that into consideration when dealing with wealth?

Well actually its CR51 at 176th-level; CR52 at 192nd.

Okay, how about this, under your system:

ECL 320 = CR 60 = Wealth 52,428,800,000
ECL 351 = CR 60 = Wealth 75,892,432,010

You think the ECL 320 would be able to put up a challenge against the ECL 351, despite the 20 BILLION in wealth difference? Gimme a break! The ECL 351 would stomp the ECL 320 into oblivion!

My point is that NO non-arithmatic formula could possibly work at these levels.

I can and I will.

No matter how much money Bill Gates has he can't build a Time Machine.

He sure could find one, though, especially if he were Level 320!

No it doesn't!

Sure it does. Think about it. You're basically saying that characters are unable to own items worth more than around 10,000,000 simply because such items take YEARS to make. If a character with 50,000,000,000 wealth isn't allowed to own any item worth more than 100,000,000, why bother having that much wealth?

Well I think I am favouring the opposite route. You don't need to curtail wealth; but items are not fashioned out of wealth alone, they take knowledge; time and energy.

You don't simply traipse down to 'Artifacts R' Us'!

No, instead they FIND these powerful items as part of treasure. Everything else is a moot point and not part of the rules, nor does it go along with the word or the spirit of those rules.

It's an arithmatic formula or bust, plain and simple. I think I've shown this time and time again.

They would have a 50/50 chance...hence the ECL 100.

Fine, but using your formula, a character with ECL 100 will still crush a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon WITHOUT A PROBLEM. Likely without even a scratch. Test it, you'll see.

I don't need to, as I explained its the items that need limiting.

Limit the items, and wealth is worthless. Why would you just leave billions lying around unused? You can't spend it on anything good and items take too long to create. I'm telling you, with wealth, it is MOSTLY items FOUND, not created or bought.

I know, you're gonna talk about the intangibles such as favors and being friends with deities and owning empires and the such. I'm sorry, but most PERSONAL *wealth* should not and does not cover these things. Yeah, SOME wealth will be allocated like that, but not most. Most is in the magical items, simple.

I intend my wealth formula to calculate wealth in terms of possessions like magical items and such ONLY, not the intangibles that are nigh impossible to put a value on.

U_K, is this how your system works? If so, I'll have to change my opinion again...

This is so confusing. I can't tell if the system is or is not compatible! Here, let me define more terms regarding CR:
Fully compatible: ukCR = wotcCR
Mostly compatible: ukCR != wotcCR, but ukECL (ukCR) = wotcCR
Incompatible: ukCR != wotcCR, and ukECL (ukCR) != wotcCR

I've known the system aren't fully compatible, but I've been recently convinced that they're mostly compatible (that is, they work together with just a bit of effort). If the wealth systems are that different, conversion won't be possible by any simple formula and they're just 'too different' for me.

Okay, I have a question. Why does it matter if the two systems are compatible when one is meant to wholly REPLACE the other? The two systems are similar, yes, but not meant to be used together. The new system replaces the old system 100%, in terms and everything else.

So if an Arcturian Megadonkey is +36 ukECL then its the equivalent of adding 36 character levels.

ROTFLMAO

As far as I can tell my simple wealth system equates to the current WotC table though. It has nothing to do with Anubis lyrical waxing.

Simple but ENTIRELY inaccurate. You say limit the items, which goes against the spirit of the rules of getting better items as you gain levels. I say limit the wealth so that those gains are controlled. I think it is obvious which method is better.

As for your formula equating to the WotC formula . . . Well . . . If the WotC formula was at all accurate, this wouldn't even be an issue! Fact is, just as WotC's ECL/CR formula were utterly inaccurate at higher levels, so too are their ideas of wealth! You just argued with your own point there, man.

Don't use a broken system to justify yours. ECL/CR had to be changed, and wealth has to be changed along with it, plain and simple. Limiting items just hurts the game itself. Besides, how would you limit the items? More and more expensive items NEVER cost less money or less time to create, so the limit on item prices would be totally stagnant! I'm sorry, but that simply doesn't work.

You try it out in a game, you will see that I am right on this issue. You may be the man with the plan when it comes to ECL (we'll see), but I've already shown that the arithmatic formula for wealth works better than any other.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

...you understand of course that much of your post stems from your misunderstanding of the facts...

You use one broken system to justify another broken system?

I don't think their wealth tables are necessarily broken.

Your system is

(ECL^4)*5

correct?

No. Thats not my system.

Well . . .

(115^4)*5 = 874,503,125

Exactly. But thats not my system.

So now you're the one advocating the use of Rule 0 and DM Discretion where a system should be in place?

No I'm advocating you get possession of the facts before shooting from the hip.

Look, you can't just Rule 0 the matter or force DM Discretion, not in this case.

You are only confusing people by going off on these rants.

Allow me to explain . . .

Are you sure thats a wise move?

You seem to assume that ALL items made by higher level characters would be created by the party spellcaster when,

Not at all. In fact at no point did I mention such a thing. So essentially you are just putting words in my mouth.

in fact, most items will have been found through adventuring. Of course a character with 800,000,000 wealth didn't create most of his items! No, he FOUND those items on adventures.

You seem to be willfully glossing over the underlying truth here. SOMEONE HAS TO CREATE THESE ITEMS IN THE FIRST PLACE!

In a world where no 14th-level+ spellcasters exist there will be no +5 weapons...or if there are they will be rare artifacts from a bygone era - it doesn't matter how rich you are they don't appear out of thin air!!!

Similarly there are viable limits to what epic items can and will be created.

THAT is the premise behind the wealth calculations. Indeed, many items will be created, but MOST will be found. That is why characters are allowed to spend the wealth as per the guidelines in the ELH. That's why there is a limit of no items worth more than 25% of wealth, and only three worth more than 10%. It's because characters FIND most items. That also means that a DM simply can't say "you can't have that" if that item is well within the wealth guidelines set forth in ALL the rules that have been released thus far.

Characters should still gain the wealth, but the power of items should level off at a certain point.

Allow me to correct myself. "The character could easily defeat any deity found in Deities & Demigods."

Is that before or after we equip them with items commensurate with their status!?

So then why do you not take that into consideration when dealing with wealth?

I did. You just have the wrong end of the stick.

Okay, how about this, under your system:

It won't be my system but what the hell...

ECL 320 = CR 60 = Wealth 52,428,800,000
ECL 351 = CR 60 = Wealth 75,892,432,010

As we all know ECL 320+ beings are a 'dime a dozen'.

You think the ECL 320 would be able to put up a challenge against the ECL 351, despite the 20 BILLION in wealth difference?

Of course.

Out of curiousity I wonder who built the ECL320's +806 weapon; or the ECL351's +948 weapon? The sort of people who go around expending 500 of their levels and over 4 millenia (with the efficient item feat) to make such an item; though then again; they should technically be at least 2424th-level anyway.

...but as we all know you can't step out of the castle without bumping into 2424th-level characters.

Gimme a break! The ECL 351 would stomp the ECL 320 into oblivion!

Perhaps if he hit him with his money belt.

My point is that NO non-arithmatic formula could possibly work at these levels.

I'll take that under advisement.

He sure could find one, though, especially if he were Level 320!

...because at a certain level such items randomly wink into existence is that it!?

Sure it does. Think about it. You're basically saying that characters are unable to own items worth more than around 10,000,000 simply because such items take YEARS to make.

The totality of energy; time and wealth makes such an enterprise almost unthinkable.

If a character with 50,000,000,000 wealth isn't allowed to own any item worth more than 100,000,000, why bother having that much wealth?

Why indeed.

"There comes a time when the jewels cease to sparkle – when the gold loses its lustre – when the throne-room becomes a prison."

No, instead they FIND these powerful items as part of treasure. Everything else is a moot point and not part of the rules, nor does it go along with the word or the spirit of those rules.

Someone has to make sense of it - might as well be me.

It's an arithmatic formula or bust, plain and simple. I think I've shown this time and time again.

You have proffered such - if we allow any item to exist.

Fine, but using your formula, a character with ECL 100 will still crush a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon WITHOUT A PROBLEM. Likely without even a scratch. Test it, you'll see.

...but I don't advocate limitless items - now do you get it!?

Limit the items, and wealth is worthless. Why would you just leave billions lying around unused? You can't spend it on anything good and items take too long to create. I'm telling you, with wealth, it is MOSTLY items FOUND, not created or bought.

I know, you're gonna talk about the intangibles such as favors and being friends with deities and owning empires and the such. I'm sorry, but most PERSONAL *wealth* should not and does not cover these things. Yeah, SOME wealth will be allocated like that, but not most. Most is in the magical items, simple.

I intend my wealth formula to calculate wealth in terms of possessions like magical items and such ONLY, not the intangibles that are nigh impossible to put a value on.

Okay so you are doing a personal treasure table - not a wealth table.

Okay, I have a question. Why does it matter if the two systems are compatible when one is meant to wholly REPLACE the other? The two systems are similar, yes, but not meant to be used together. The new system replaces the old system 100%, in terms and everything else.

Probably because many people may not want to have to bother changing a load of challenge ratings.

Simple but ENTIRELY inaccurate. You say limit the items, which goes against the spirit of the rules of getting better items as you gain levels.

Perhaps the spirit of the rules for Video Games; not Roleplaying Games though!

I say limit the wealth so that those gains are controlled. I think it is obvious which method is better.

You mean to say you agree with me!?

As for your formula equating to the WotC formula . . . Well . . . If the WotC formula was at all accurate, this wouldn't even be an issue! Fact is, just as WotC's ECL/CR formula were utterly inaccurate at higher levels, so too are their ideas of wealth! You just argued with your own point there, man.

Don't use a broken system to justify yours. ECL/CR had to be changed, and wealth has to be changed along with it, plain and simple. Limiting items just hurts the game itself. Besides, how would you limit the items? More and more expensive items NEVER cost less money or less time to create, so the limit on item prices would be totally stagnant! I'm sorry, but that simply doesn't work.

I have to be honest I haven't decided on the best course of action for wealth yet; but if you are so strongly opposed perhaps I must be on the right track.

You try it out in a game, you will see that I am right on this issue. You may be the man with the plan when it comes to ECL (we'll see), but I've already shown that the arithmatic formula for wealth works better than any other.

Seemingly I had an hour to waste; but I must say now my head hurts.

 

[CRGreathouse]

*****

Probably because many people may not want to have to bother changing a load of challenge ratings.

*****

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

Probably because many people may not want to have to bother changing a load of challenge ratings.

Of course that said; I have a short list of revised Monster Manual CRs in the Immortals Handbook - for those that are so wildly innaccurate as to cause problems (Solar; Dragons etc.). Should the ELH enter the SRD before the release of the IH I would no doubt add a number of epic monster CRs to that list.

 

[Anubis]

No. Thats not my system.

Hey, I'm just going by your most recently posted formula, which was:

Level x Level x Level x Level x 5

In other words:

(ECL^4)*5

You say this isn't your system, then fine. You have already, however, stated that the new system gives MORE wealth as opposed to less. You gotta cap that wealth, seriously.

You seem to be willfully glossing over the underlying truth here. SOMEONE HAS TO CREATE THESE ITEMS IN THE FIRST PLACE!

It really doesn't matter who created the items in the first place. It may have been a weapons god who created a bunch of insanely powerful weapons and sent them to the planes, or it could have been some old immortal wizard, who cares?

Characters should still gain the wealth, but the power of items should level off at a certain point.

Okay, I'm gonna take this from another approach. At higher levels, a majority of a character's power comes from wealth. Take the equipment from the character, and the character ain't even half as useful. A fighter without his sword can't do anything, nor can a wizard without his spellbook. Fact is, as ECL goes up, the power of monsters goes up, and the power of the items PCs have with which they can combat those monsters also goes up. By ECL 300, many things will have damage reduction upwards of 1000/+100! Yet by your system, such a weapon simply can't exist!

My point isn't that your system doesn't work at all . . . My point is that it, as ANY non-arithmatic formula, eventually breaks down for whatever reason . . . You said that you wanted a system that works at ALL levels, and I am giving you that system, at least for the most part. I say use the numbers WotC gives you until Level 40, then it caps off with an arithmatic formula. This formula works as well at Level 100 as it does at Level 10000!

Now do you see my point?

Is that before or after we equip them with items commensurate with their status!?

One small problem . . . You see, according to the rules, it costs deities as much to make items as it does for characters to make items . . . Money, XP, deities still have to pay all the costs. If character's can't create such items, neither can deities. Unless, of course, you made deities be able to pop items out of thin air!

As we all know ECL 320+ beings are a 'dime a dozen'.

That's not the point. Point is that the system eventually breaks down any which way you look at it. Mine does not.

Why indeed.

"There comes a time when the jewels cease to sparkle – when the gold loses its lustre – when the throne-room becomes a prison."

You are again using Rule 0 to take away from players.

...but I don't advocate limitless items - now do you get it!?

I understand, I just think that's a poor excuse for a reason to stop better items from existing.

Okay so you are doing a personal treasure table - not a wealth table.

Actually, YES. That's exactly what I'm saying. The wealth my MY system covers equipment. Perhaps we are not on the same page here.

You advocate your numbers for total wealth including the intangibles, which although seems a bit silly to me, is actually stated in the ELH as well as other places.

I, on the other hand, advocate my tables to be used for personal equipment only.

Perhaps the real solution here is to use YOUR formula for total wealth while using MY formula to determine how much OF that wealth can be spent on equipment?

Probably because many people may not want to have to bother changing a load of challenge ratings.

That is precisely why I am bowing out of the ECL System race. You are now the lone superpower for the ECL System. If anything's broken, though, I'll nuke ya'. I'll be watching.

By the way, just how many monsters from the Monster Manual are so bad that they need to be changed? I realize that a strong majority of them won't come out *exactly* the same by your ECL System, but most of them are off by so lilttle that it makes no difference. Which ones are in serious need of changing? (Besides the obvious ones like ALL dragons, Solars, Planetars, Tarrasque, and Titans . . .)

On a side note, pay careful attention to the Ghaele (Eladrin) Celestial, it's more powerful than it looks. It's actually more powerful than an Astral Deva!

You mean to say you agree with me!?

Funny . . . Smart@$$ . . .

I have to be honest I haven't decided on the best course of action for wealth yet; but if you are so strongly opposed perhaps I must be on the right track.

That's not very nice. I thought this was a friendly debate? I may be passionate, but I haven't dissed anyone here.

Seemingly I had an hour to waste; but I must say now my head hurts.

Again, not very nice. What happened to the friendly debate? I know I am strongly opinionated, but I haven't been dissing people.

 

[Anubis]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!



Of course that said; I have a short list of revised Monster Manual CRs in the Immortals Handbook - for those that are so wildly innaccurate as to cause problems (Solar; Dragons etc.). Should the ELH enter the SRD before the release of the IH I would no doubt add a number of epic monster CRs to that list.

Again, I wonder how much of the Immortal's Handbook actually relies on your ECL System as an integral part . . .

You could post all of those ECLs/CRs here for free, and WITHOUT violating the OGL. (Obviously by simply posting it as "your personal house rules".)

The only reason I'm asking for this is because it's anyone's guess as to win Deities & Demigods will enter the SRC. I'm guessing it'll be late 2003 before it happens, personally. Any which way, the longer everyone goes without proper ECLs/CRs, the longer people's campaigns go unbalanced. I realize that most people don't play Epic games, but I do, and would like to have good numbers to work with.

By the way, do you still suggest having ECL and CR be exactly the same, even for creating PCs and the such? (For instance, does every CR 5 creature give ECL +5 when a PC makes a character of that kind?)