How much effect on ECL should Fast Healing have?

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Hey, I'm just going by your most recently posted formula, which was:

Level x Level x Level x Level x 5

In other words:

(ECL^4)*5

That was one idea I had, but it was never 'my system'. I wouldn't even say I have fully decided on a system for wealth as yet!

You say this isn't your system, then fine. You have already, however, stated that the new system gives MORE wealth as opposed to less. You gotta cap that wealth, seriously.

Of course...unless you curtail items that is.

It really doesn't matter who created the items in the first place. It may have been a weapons god who created a bunch of insanely powerful weapons and sent them to the planes, or it could have been some old immortal wizard, who cares?

Hey, I care!

Okay, I'm gonna take this from another approach. At higher levels, a majority of a character's power comes from wealth. Take the equipment from the character, and the character ain't even half as useful. A fighter without his sword can't do anything, nor can a wizard without his spellbook. Fact is, as ECL goes up, the power of monsters goes up, and the power of the items PCs have with which they can combat those monsters also goes up. By ECL 300, many things will have damage reduction upwards of 1000/+100! Yet by your system, such a weapon simply can't exist!

Don't expect even Overgods to have that sort of Damage Reduction. Conceivably if such a deity spent every SDA and EDA on Damage Reduction they could approach that figure (DR 480/+96 at Divine Rank 31) - but it would be somewhat irrelevant...an opponent would just 'up' an Anti-Magic Field and hey presto.

My point isn't that your system doesn't work at all . . . My point is that it, as ANY non-arithmatic formula, eventually breaks down for whatever reason . . . You said that you wanted a system that works at ALL levels, and I am giving you that system, at least for the most part. I say use the numbers WotC gives you until Level 40, then it caps off with an arithmatic formula. This formula works as well at Level 100 as it does at Level 10000!

Now do you see my point?

If the WotC 'formula' is broken then it is broken at all levels.

One small problem . . . You see, according to the rules, it costs deities as much to make items as it does for characters to make items . . . Money, XP, deities still have to pay all the costs. If character's can't create such items, neither can deities. Unless, of course, you made deities be able to pop items out of thin air!

Unless of course they can expend worship points instead of XP and GP and increase the amount to counteract time.

Even worship points have their limits though.

That's not the point. Point is that the system eventually breaks down any which way you look at it. Mine does not.

I simply don't agree with the slowed tangent for wealth.

You are again using Rule 0 to take away from players.

I understand, I just think that's a poor excuse for a reason to stop better items from existing.

Something I have been mulling over again and again. How much money would Odin actually have!? What could he buy? A castle? A city? A country? A planet?

Actually, YES. That's exactly what I'm saying. The wealth my MY system covers equipment. Perhaps we are not on the same page here.

You advocate your numbers for total wealth including the intangibles, which although seems a bit silly to me, is actually stated in the ELH as well as other places.

I, on the other hand, advocate my tables to be used for personal equipment only.

Perhaps the real solution here is to use YOUR formula for total wealth while using MY formula to determine how much OF that wealth can be spent on equipment?

Possibly. But I'm sort of approaching that idea. Wealth as standard, but a limit to items. Sort of like having two tables I suppose...?

That is precisely why I am bowing out of the ECL System race. You are now the lone superpower for the ECL System. If anything's broken, though, I'll nuke ya'. I'll be watching.

Hey! I couldn't have done it without you mate!

By the way, just how many monsters from the Monster Manual are so bad that they need to be changed? I realize that a strong majority of them won't come out *exactly* the same by your ECL System, but most of them are off by so lilttle that it makes no difference. Which ones are in serious need of changing? (Besides the obvious ones like ALL dragons, Solars, Planetars, Tarrasque, and Titans . . .)

On a side note, pay careful attention to the Ghaele (Eladrin) Celestial, it's more powerful than it looks. It's actually more powerful than an Astral Deva!

I'll probably only mention those that are 'off' by more than 2 points of CR. Not sure of the full list offhand.

That's not very nice. I thought this was a friendly debate? I may be passionate, but I haven't dissed anyone here.

Again, not very nice. What happened to the friendly debate? I know I am strongly opinionated, but I haven't been dissing people.

I know mate. If I offended you I apologise - I meant no disrespect you know that. If anything I was just angry at myself earlier* and I think that may have led to a few terse comments of which you just happened to be the recipient.

*I was trying to catch a spider so as to release it outside and I accidently damaged the poor wee things legs as it 'broke for cover' - amazing how something so trivial can annoy you.

 

[Anubis]

Don't expect even Overgods to have that sort of Damage Reduction. Conceivably if such a deity spent every SDA and EDA on Damage Reduction they could approach that figure (DR 480/+96 at Divine Rank 31) - but it would be somewhat irrelevant...an opponent would just 'up' an Anti-Magic Field and hey presto.

Well, I suppose at THAT level it CAN be assumed that EVERYONE has Antimagic Field. Only a fool wouldn't have access at that level.

If the WotC 'formula' is broken then it is broken at all levels.

No, it's just broken at high levels. Like their ECL/CR system.

Unless of course they can expend worship points instead of XP and GP and increase the amount to counteract time.

Even worship points have their limits though.

Interesting. I have no place commenting on that having not seem the WP rules.

Possibly. But I'm sort of approaching that idea. Wealth as standard, but a limit to items. Sort of like having two tables I suppose...?

Well then how about we use my table for "actual" wealth as in equipment and such, and whatever you come up with, that will be "total" wealth that includes the intangibles?

Sound like a plan? Honestly, no one is gonna come up with a better or simpler way to limit items. Limiting the equipment wealth that way automatically limits the items, without resorting to Rule 0.

On a side not, I plan on creating new feats that make it easier for extremely high level characters to make Epic items. It'll be the next step up from Efficient Item Creation. It'll be there to explain that uber-powerful items.

Hey! I couldn't have done it without you mate!

Glad I could be of help. I know I had some ideas nailed down good, but alas, I couldn't get a system to work at all levels.

I know mate. If I offended you I apologise - I meant no disrespect you know that. If anything I was just angry at myself earlier* and I think that may have led to a few terse comments of which you just happened to be the recipient.

*I was trying to catch a spider so as to release it outside and I accidently damaged the poor wee things legs as it 'broke for cover' - amazing how something so trivial can annoy you.

Ah, okay. Alrighty then, no harm no foul. Anyway, later!

 

[S'mon]

"Something I have been mulling over again and again. How much money would Odin actually have!? What could he buy? A castle? A city? A country? A planet?"

Well, IMC (1e) it cost Odin 100 million gp (in whatever currency the gods use*) to ransom Thrin from Dispater, which can be assumed to be a substantial proportion of his personal wealth, and a substantial addition to Dispater's coffers - enough to be worth incurring the displeasure of the Norse gods. This is just my personal approach, of course, but I suggest comparing pantheon heads to real-world ultra-wealthy. Eg at 1gp=£50/$75, which is apparently about the current market value of 1/50 a pound of gold, 100 million gp is £5 billion. Which would be a significant dent in Bill Gates's coffers, but not unimaginably OTT. YMMV.


*Eg if the pantheon has easy access to the Para-Elemental Plane of Minerals, then actual gold would lose its value, although I don't recommend this. Maybe their currency is backed by XP (like magic items are, at 1 XP per 25 gp) or Worship Points.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Simon!

"Something I have been mulling over again and again. How much money would Odin actually have!? What could he buy? A castle? A city? A country? A planet?"

Well, IMC (1e) it cost Odin 100 million gp (in whatever currency the gods use*) to ransom Thrin from Dispater, which can be assumed to be a substantial proportion of his personal wealth, and a substantial addition to Dispater's coffers - enough to be worth incurring the displeasure of the Norse gods. This is just my personal approach, of course, but I suggest comparing pantheon heads to real-world ultra-wealthy. Eg at 1gp=£50/$75, which is apparently about the current market value of 1/50 a pound of gold, 100 million gp is £5 billion. Which would be a significant dent in Bill Gates's coffers, but not unimaginably OTT. YMMV.

As I work out Odins current wealth its akin to 1.3 Billion GP. (comparatively $65 billion dollars)

However, it bares mention what portion of this is actual monetary wealth; what portion is magical items/artifacts and what portion represents property ownership (ie. Asgard; various halls).

Also of the magic items/artifacts what portion are those personally used and what are those sitting in the vault*.

*As Simon is aware Thrin has an immense collection of magic items (and even a few artifacts) that he doesn't actually use. Simply the spoils of war as it were.

So you are left with:

Wealth (Monetary and Property)
Items (Personal and Superfluous)

Admittedly superfluous items could be converted into wealth but not necessarily superior personal items - which is my whole point!

This is something that won't cause so much of a problem for PCs that have been played from low level up. But it of course needs to be addressed for both NPCs and those campaigns that deign to start PCs at relatively high levels.