How much is too Much? (RttTOEE) (spoilers)

[Endur]

There is a wide range in a single EL in 3/3.5E, at one end of the range, you have a relatively weak EL, like a NPC fighter of the same level. At the other end of the range you have creatures like Dragons or half-fiends.

Return to the Temple is very accurate on ELs, but wide spread use of tougher monsters (i.e. templates, dragons, fiends, undead) makes it a brutal module.

Besides, GM tactics makes a real difference for combats. A highly effective GM can take an enounter that is of the party level and kill one pc on average (i.e. use up 20% of party hit points). A more laid back GM can take an encounter that is of the party level and never kill a pc (unless unlucky with dice).

In 3/3.5 E, this really shouldn't be possible. The EL should be fairly clearly stated and accurate. If the adventure regularly uses encounters that are wildly outside of the projected level, it's not a meatgrinder, it's just blah.

 

[Mercule]

For those that played/ DMed, was it actually fun going through all those encounters?

Nope. Really can't say that this was a very fun module.

We had great characters with great interaction between them and everyone had fun with the characters, but everytime we focused on the actual adventure, it really got tedious. We even dropped our original characters and brought it 13th level characters in their place. We started losing people from that group on the approach to the Earth bridge. We barely made it to the outer fane before getting our butts handed to us enough to not bother.

The DM who ran it has decided that the 3.x CR/EL system is totally hosed and I doubt if he'll run another game of any significant duration using the system. Of course, we had a rogue-heavy party, and he house-ruled flanking so that you, effectively, couldn't get flanking until the second round of dedicated fighting, so I'm not sure how fair of an assessment we got.

 

[silentspace]

Best part for my group was that there was no compelling reason to go on. We cut our losses and looked for adventure elsewhere.

 

[johncolossus]

I am currently GMing this adventure. It seems we have been playing forever and they have only just about finished in rastor, with the next step CRM. Because it is very much a hack and slash tye adventure, i have changed and added to the background. I have linked the return of Tharizidun to one of the characters (who is an amnesiac risen demon circa Mythic Races) and made the cult more widespread around the Forgotten Realms. This meant i have added in extra adventure areas such as them helping a druid against a deepspawn, roleplaying with a mysterious benefactor, breaking a drugs ring run by wererats (the leader of them being Chatrilion, the assassin from Hommlet). This has meant their levels are higher than the original posters group even just before CRM. They are all about ECL 8.
The group:
Risen Demon Paladin 1 / Monk 6
Halfling Fighter1 / Ranger 1 / Rogue 6
Gnome Sorceror 8
Elven Druid 8
Human Cleric of Kosseuth 6 / Elemental (fire) Adept 2 (adapted from Monsters Handbook)
In fact they work well together and I may have to increase the EL of the CRM to begin with until it balences their power level!
I have enjoyed it so far and I belive the group has....as with any game the oft memorable moments helping lots.....the less than dextrous cleric succumbing to tunnel and pitfall traps created by umber hulks, dire bear dung (dont ask) and the rogue doing his bronco best on top of a giant slug!?

Anyway I think this adventure is one that has a lot of potential and obviously will not suit everyone. The most important thing about it is to have fun and if you are not then walk away as some have.
Just thought i'd give my vote for it...

 

[Creamsteak]

I've participated in a single session of said module, though we were just travelling across country at the time...

However, I have heard legend that this is the origin of Meepo the Mighty. Sadly, because of this, I can't play or run this module without metagaming. I'd just have to save/protect/defend Meepo, nomatter what he happens to want.

 

[Geoff Watson]

I've participated in a single session of said module, though we were just travelling across country at the time...

However, I have heard legend that this is the origin of Meepo the Mighty. Sadly, because of this, I can't play or run this module without metagaming. I'd just have to save/protect/defend Meepo, nomatter what he happens to want.

No, Meepo is from another adventure. Anyway, any legendary status he has is from DM modification, since that adventure actually has him being a total loser.

Geoff.

 

[sfgiants]

So, how many casualties should there be on average throughout the entire module? What have people had at the end?10?20?5?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I played through to the Crater Ridge Mines about 1 and a half years ago before I had to move. I loved the module--while some encounters were difficult, how difficult they were depended very much on how we approached them. If we went for a full frontal assault, it could quickly turn against us if we faltered or made mistakes or just went in week (our abortive assault on the main CRM gate got off to a poor start when only three players showed up and we went in anyway and was worse because the party wasn't of one mind as to whether to stick it out or run after the alarm went off.

Our party was:
Half dragon, half orc Bbn (5 at the end)
Elf archer Cleric (9 at the end)
Tiefling Bbn/Rog (1/6 at the end IIRC)
Human Ftr (spiked chain-7 at the end IIRC)
Elf Ftr (sword and shield)
Human Sor (7 at the end)
Human Drd/Rgr (deceased)
Dwarf Clr 7 or 8 with dwarf clr cohort.
Of course, they didn't all show up all of the time and the Tiefling only joined after the Sor's player left and the elf Ftr's player largely lost interest.

As I recall, we had only a couple of deaths. The ranger druid died facing a greater water elemental in an encounter the DM improvised. And the Half-Dragon barbarian died to the dire ape at the hobgoblin temple. I think the spiked chain fighter was also killed by the water elemental.

And one other comment--it never cease to amuse me how people stand up and declare the CR/EL system "broken" or "unworkable" because an unbalanced party operating under house rules that halve the damage dealing capability of most of their members had a harder time than the system indicates. (To me, that's a fair indication that it actually works...challenges are much tougher when everyone is trying to use a screwdriver for a hammer and is doing so with one hand tied behind their back. If they can't succeed, that's to be expected).

 

[Numion]

I DMed it. About little over 30 kills. The actual adventure was completed with less than 30, but players insisted on checking out the final tower (Inner Fane, IIRC) in the end .. not wise.

I think it was a great adventure. Some players thought it was too lethal, but overall it got a good reception from my group.

 

[Knightcrawler]

Well right now my party finally found Rastor (sp?) and is about to go up into the mountains. The completely cleaned out the moathouse and made one forray into Nolb (sp?) nearly died several times and ran from Nolb with our tails between our legs. Our only death at this point happened when we were camping and the DM rolled a very nasty random encounter and then proceeded to roll mostly 20's. We did have one instance that we shoudl have lost at least one other party member but a couple of spectacular ideas and a generous DM got us out of that. Right now our party is as follows.

Human 3rd level Paladin/1st level Cleric (raised from dead once)
Human 2nd level Rogue/3rd level Fighter
Human 6th level Ranger
Human 5th level Sorcerer
Elf 3rd level Ranger/2nd level Fighter
Gnome 2nd level fighter/3rd level Cleric
Elf 4th level Bard

Now we play with the -10 rule. We have had many battles where half our party was unconscious and only a couple of lucky roles saved us. So I guess we have been very, very lucky so far.