How much money does the avarage commoner need?

[d20Gurus.com]

The "average" income of a commoner is one sp a day. I can see that, if you look at the term average by its definition.

Commoners are the peasants; farmers, landworkers, hunters, etc.... they would only see about a silver a day.

Everything else you are describing, such as blacksmiths, cobblers, etc... they are middle class, as long as they also have their own storefront or customer base. They can see far more than one silver a day, which is a good thing... as they generally do not have eggs, milk, or wheat to barter with to get the things they couldn't afford.

Just felt like adding my two cents

 

[Kal Torak]

I find that a sliver for an un-skilled labourer (so NOT a crafsman!) is an good number, an un-skilled labourer could just amlost sort of keep him-self and his family fed and clothed, plus the wife does little thing here and there and from the age of 5 so do the children.

A craftsman could get quite a lot more than that, he could afford a house, especilly if he asks the guild to lend him money (a normal thing IMC) an un-skliied labourer rents a room or two in a tenemanet and is lucky to have enought money left at the end of the day to get drunk.

As for the peasent and the bow, the bows in the PHB are high quality "war" bows, a farmer would use soemthing much less high quality, either making it himself or trading a few bushels of grain for one. A peasent would have very little money and have little use for it, you can't eat silver! As for a sword that is very un-likely, as has been alredy said.

Assining modern dollar (or euro or pound or whatever) valeus to gps is pointless, the idustrial revolution changed all that kind of thing, the second industrial revoultion changed them all agian and so on. It's just pointless.

Some of the common commdedties in the PHB are slightly to hligly priced but that can be easly modefied.

Also to end this post I will say that the more very poerfull people and dungeons full of gold there are the less richness there is for the people!

 

[jmucchiello]

So that would make a battle-axe cost $1500 by today's standards. A sword would be $2000. So let's make it more realistic and say that a firearm, (being a more modern and useful weapon), should then cost $2000. Which they don't.

You are forgetting that the weapon is handmade. No run off an assembly line. A handmade sword can cost you over a thousand dollar to two thousand dollars today.

 

[Xeriar]

In fuedal Japan, the average commoner lived on about one gold piece per year ("Have you eaten rice today?").

Since gold has had a fairly stable value throughout history, it's certainly a better marker than real-world goods.

I'm working on a different economic system but it's slow, and you learn new things and rework stuff all the time... :-/

 

[Green Knight]

I know this might be covered in the core rules somewhere, but I was wondering how much money does the average commoner in a D&D fantasy type world handle in a year.

Seeing as how Commoners' have access to the Craft and Profession skills, I'd say they make money according to the rules for those skills. Going by Profession, you make half your check result in GP per week of work. So let's make a couple of assumptions.

1. The average 1st-level Commoner stuck 4 ranks into Profession.
2. They have the Skill Focus (Profession) Feat, giving them a +2 bonus.

So assuming no stat bonuses, Commoners have a +6 bonus to their Profession roll. On average they'll roll a 10 for their D20 check. 10 + 6 = 16 / 2 = 8. So the average Commoner makes 8 GP a week. 52 weeks a year means the average Commoner makes 416 GP a year. So in D&D terms, that's what Commoners make, though I imagine the nobility sucks off a large portion of that through taxes.

 

[S'mon]

1sp is a maid or unskilled labourer's day wage in DMG - so I use 1sp/day, 3gp/month, as subsistence wage for a single adult - you can't maintain a family on that in anything short of destitution. Rem until the 20th century most people in Europe (not USA) never married or had children! About 1/3 of people married and averaged ca 6 children each, apparently.

So, for a farmer with a family of 5 total, he needs income equivalent to 5sp/day for them to subsist reasonably comfortably, ie a typical peasant farm produces about 15gp/month by value.

Obviously a farmer won't want or need a shortsword, a club is more useful and free. I agree about bows - PHB bow prices are extremely high, but then PHB shortbows are extremely lethal, each arrow as deadly as a javelin or shortspear. I'd guess the draw weight on a D&D bow is about 10lbs or so per point of maximum damage (eg 80lbs for standard longbow, 120 lbs for 1d8+4 mighty longbow), maybe a bit more. So for a typical hunting bow, damage of around 1d3 or 1d4 seems more likely.

 

[NLP]

So that would make a battle-axe cost $1500 by today's standards. A sword would be $2000. So let's make it more realistic and say that a firearm, (being a more modern and useful weapon), should then cost $2000. Which they don't.

So, I really don't see any point in trying to assign modern values to a fantasy world's items. Furthermore, I don't think that, even in the 'real' middle-ages, a farmer would have had to trade 5 quilts, 2 pigs, and a week's worth of field-labor for something as simple as a bow.

Both of these statements show you complete lack of understanding in both modern production and rural economy.

Even today, a sword - and I mean one made by hand - can cost you several hundred to several thousands of dollars. Something that is made by hand is much more expensive than something coming off an assembly line. Just ask Henry Ford about that.

If you consider a bow to be valuable to you then you would not mind working a week or more to get one. I suggest you watch a movie along the lines of Sergeant York. The movie gives a good example of rural America pre WWI. You might just be surprised at how much work someone had to do just to make a few cents. I would suggest a book or two, but I know you will not read them, so why bother.

Your entire argument is based on an idea that the items listed in the PHB are accurate ideas as to how much something really costs. They are not. In the real world a cowboy would shoot his horse and the carry his saddle hundreds of miles across the desert on his back until he got a new horse. The saddle cost more than 3-4 horses. In a fantasy world you can buy lots of saddles for what a good riding horse would cost.

There is no way to give you an answer you will like. If you think peasants should make 1 GP a day, pay them that much. If you think it should be 1 SP, make it that. In "real world" history almost everything a non-city dwelling peasant did in his live involved barter, not coin. If a GP has no value in your game because all the players have thousands of them then give the peasants thousands too. Then the players have a reason to feel like they need more money.

 

[jgbrowning]

So, I really don't see any point in trying to assign modern values to a fantasy world's items. Furthermore, I don't think that, even in the 'real' middle-ages, a farmer would have had to trade 5 quilts, 2 pigs, and a week's worth of field-labor for something as simple as a bow.

Plus, assuming most D&D settings have a fully functional economy, where trading is at a minimum and cash tender is commonly accepted form or payment, then either (a) the prices of common things need to go down (which could destroy some of the game-balance), or (b) commoners should earn more than 1 sp per day.

I keep thinking about the typical city-dwelling commoner. He might be a craftsman of some sort. In any case, these types make up the vast majority of people in most campaign worlds. The 'average laborer' earns 2 gold pieces a month, or around that (assuming he works 5 days a week); yet, a typical 'house' is listed at (I believe) 500 gp. So I really don't get how that works.

ok here's my responses to your paragraphs

1st paragraph. Bows aren't simple. the type of bow they are describing in the PH is a complex and difficult machine.

2nd paragraph. barter is often MORE useful than coin. here's a historical example. kings would often accept payments in kind for taxes rather than coin because then they have to count the coins, keep the coins safe, and then distribute the coins to the person they need goods from. example.. peasant A gives me 10 sp as taxes. i then count the sp, keep it safe, transport it and then give it to another peasant so i can buy his grain. just simpliler to get the grain from peasant A in the first place.

3rd paragraph. craftsman are outside the realm of commoner. craftsmen "practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in GOLD pieces per week of dedicated work." PH under CRAFT skill. ditto for profession.


and overall, you are really just not understanding the crushing poverty that was common during the middle ages. Visit a 3rd world country today and you'll understand why it does cost so much to purchase a bow. People are lucky to be able to afford enough to feed themselves, let alone have the luxury of their own house. about 20% of the population during the middle ages were destitute (without a home)... wage labourers, beggers, small vendors, etc.. that lived on the streets. Again go to a 3rd world country and you'll still see the same thing.

I just went to india and whenever you have to catch an early train or bus you'll go though streets that are packed full of sleeping people, im not kidding, you'll see hundreds.... these people even run food stalls, peddle small trinkets.. etc.. and they STILL live on the streets. People live, eat, deficate, and die on the streets.

joe b.

 

[Kal Torak]

how could a peasant possibly afford to buy a simple shortsword for home-defense (a real necessity in a typical D&D world)

how about getting a club, insted of a shortsword that has required a skilled craftsman at least a week to create and will require weeks of training just not to stab youself? There is no such thing as a simple shortsword, even the worst shortsword has still be toiled over for days!

something as simple as a bow

I suggest you try making a "simple" long bow, made of yew, aged near a fire (but not too near) in the right position for over a year, and see what you end up with. Then tell me how simple it is. A long bow, like all weapons is a finly crafted pice of eqipment, a simple bow (that only requires days or weks to make and only fair skill) would inflict much less damage that a "normal" bow (1d3 I would gess.)

(editid to say that I only just noticed that someone had already done the bow bit!)

 

[Wolfen Priest]

1st paragraph. Bows aren't simple. the type of bow they are describing in the PH is a complex and difficult machine.

Ok. Point made. So I guess it's completely unrealistic for any commoner to ever own a bow, which is fine for a grim and/or gritty campaign.

2nd paragraph. barter is often MORE useful than coin. here's a historical example. kings would often accept payments in kind for taxes rather than coin because then they have to count the coins, keep the coins safe, and then distribute the coins to the person they need goods from. example.. peasant A gives me 10 sp as taxes. i then count the sp, keep it safe, transport it and then give it to another peasant so i can buy his grain. just simpliler to get the grain from peasant A in the first place.

Again, that's fine if you are playing in a realistic game. But what about the 'typical' D&D game?

3rd paragraph. craftsman are outside the realm of commoner. craftsmen "practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in GOLD pieces per week of dedicated work." PH under CRAFT skill. ditto for profession.

As Green Knight pointed out, commoners have access to these skills, not only making the point moot, but also adding strength to the argument that 'commoners' do, in fact, earn more than 1 sp/day.

and overall, you are really just not understanding the crushing poverty that was common during the middle ages. Visit a 3rd world country today and you'll understand why it does cost so much to purchase a bow. People are lucky to be able to afford enough to feed themselves, let alone have the luxury of their own house. about 20% of the population during the middle ages were destitute (without a home)... wage labourers, beggers, small vendors, etc.. that lived on the streets. Again go to a 3rd world country and you'll still see the same thing.

In fact, you are wrong in guaging my supposed ignorance; in fact, I am well aware of the crushing poverty that most people faced in the real-world middle-ages. I'm suggesting that for most D&D campaigns, the majority of the people are not living in such utterly squalid conditions. That would be a gritty setting, not typical for a 'normal' D&D setting, if you ask me. For examples, look at most of the best-selling campaign settings out there. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms have never made bartering a common trade practice, to my knowledge. Nor have they emphasized that all commoners live in squalid conditions, with barely enough money "to get drunk at the end of the day."

I just went to india and whenever you have to catch an early train or bus you'll go though streets that are packed full of sleeping people, im not kidding, you'll see hundreds.... these people even run food stalls, peddle small trinkets.. etc.. and they STILL live on the streets. People live, eat, deficate, and die on the streets.

Yeah but I don't see that kind of lifestyle mentioned in WotC-produced modules or city-settings, do you?