How much more powerful are Spycraft's base classes than D20 Modern's?

[Turanil]

Don't forget that you have to be at least a 4th level character before you can cast 1st level spells as a Mage, but a 1st level D&D character can cast 1st level spells as a Wizard. The Mage is also only a 10-level class and only has access to 5th level spells max, whereas a Wizard has 20 levels to work with and can eventually cast 9th level spells.

See it that way:
1) DnD: a 4th level fighter multiclasses as a wizard, and when he has got 10 levels of wizards (a long campaign indeead), he multiclasses into something else (maybe a prestige class that don't get +1 spellcasting level at each level).
2) D20 Modern: a 4th level tough hero multiclasses as a mage, and when he has got the 10 levels of it, he multiclasses into something else.

I think that D20 Modern characters are much more powerful. The fact that damage threshold is not the same doesn't change so much. In fact, I well understand that monsters also get d20 M classes, so the whole is balanced. However, as a GM, the more abilities and powers of your several monsters you must manage, the more tedious and tiring it becomes. On the other hand, players just play one character and become used to its various abilities. But that's how I see the whole thing. Mybe another thread should be started: how GMs do manage efficaciously many NPCs and monsters with so many abilities against their PCs. Last time I run a scenario in which there was two assassins, three priests, and a devil at th same time, against the character. It was too much, the players did an easy butchery of them, just because I had so much to manage, it was a disaster. Fortunately, half of them failed their save against the devil's fear aura, and as a GM I got a much easier time. But I digress from the thread...

 

[jaerdaph]

See it that way:
2) D20 Modern: a 4th level tough hero multiclasses as a mage, and when he has got the 10 levels of it, he multiclasses into something else.

But a Tough hero can't multiclass into Mage at 4th level - he has to be at least 9th level before he can do so because the skills required to become a Mage are all cross-class skills for him.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

D20 Modern also has a medium save progression. It's harder to notice since there aren't any 20-level D20M classes

In a non-FX setting, D20 Modern characters are more powerful than DnD characters. Even if you play D20 past (medieval setting with no magic) D20M characters will still be more powerful (melee smash!). However, they will still drop all the time due to massive damage from swords backed up be melee smash and weapon specialization.

Once you give gear to the DnD characters, they will quickly outpace D20 Modern characters. This is especially true at the higher levels, when D20 Modern characters have a hard time getting high Defense values (even in D20M, attacks scale faster than defenses) while the DnD characters will have magic armor (and maybe shields) along with rings, amulets, buff spells, etc...

 

[d4]

i don't think that d20 Modern characters are in any way overpowered compared to D&D.

(example: tough hero vs fighter)

OK, let's use this as an example.

hit points: Fighter: d10; Tough Hero: d10. no advantage.

skill points: Fighter: 2; Tough Hero: 2. no advantage.

class skills: Fighter: 7; Tough Hero: 12. advantage Tough Hero, but with the same number of skill points per level as a Fighter, he's not going to be able to get much more use out of his skills than the Fighter is. so the advantage is quite slight.

action points: Fighter: none; Tough Hero: gets them. advantage Tough Hero.

starting feats: Fighter: all simple weapons, all martial weapons, all armor, all shields and tower shields; Tough Hero: all simple weapons. advantage Fighter by a long way. the Tough Hero would have to expend at least 5 or 6 feats to get up to where the Fighter starts. also note that because of this, if both receive the same amount of magical gear, the Fighter will be able to benefit from a broader range of magic weapons and armor than the Tough Hero. this also increases the advantage of the Fighter.

defense bonus: Figher: none; Tough Hero: starts at +1, goes up to +5. advantage Tough Hero, but note that even a 1st-level Fighter can get a better AC than a 10th-level Tough Hero because of his armor proficiencies.

bonus feats: Fighter: 1 at 1st level and every even level; Tough Hero: one every even level. advantage Fighter. even a 10th-level Fighter has 1 more bonus feat than a 10th-level Tough Hero. also note that the Fighter's bonus feats are almost all combat-related feats, whereas in the Tough Hero's case, only half of them are. the Fighter also has a much wider range of bonus feats to choose from (and more powerful ones).

BAB: Fighter: best progression; Tough Hero: medium progression. advantage Fighter. the Fighter can eventually attain 4 attacks per round; the Tough Hero never can.

saves: Fighter: one good, two bad; Tough Hero: one medium, two bad. advantage Fighter.

talents: Fighter: none; Tough Hero: one every even level. advantage Tough Hero, but most of his Talents aren't all that powerful.

occupation: Fighter: none; Tough Hero: usually gets a couple of permanent class skills or a bonus feat. advantage Tough Hero.

all in all, they look about the same to me. IMO the advantages the Tough Hero receives over the Fighter only make up for its shortcomings; it doesn't make it more powerful.

a similar analysis could be done between a Wizard 10 and a Smart 3 / Mage 7 or whatever.

 

[Cergorach]

Folks what's this useles banter that tries to compare classes of different systems and judging the class completely out of context of the system that uses it? You also don't compare a diesel engine with a nuclear reactor, while both are power sources, each is used for a different purpose. Same goes for the classes. When you put a strong hero class directly into D&D game chances are that the strong hero will have the advantage because of the ac bonus, a mechanic that is lcking in D&D, on the other hand, in D20 Modern adversaries would also have the same ac bonus. The clases of D20 Modern, D&D, and Spycraft are not 'more powerful' relative to their own system, when you pull them out of context they might be. For example a 20th level fighter is far more powerfull in Spycraft than a Soldier. A 20th level fighter has a BAB of +20/+15/+10/+5, a 20th level soldier has a BAB of +20.

 

[Corinth]

D&D, d20 Modern and Spycraft are not to be mixed together. They use the same game engine, but they are not the same game; they are wholly separate games, so treat them as such.

 

[jaerdaph]

D&D, d20 Modern and Spycraft are not to be mixed together. They use the same game engine, but they are not the same game; they are wholly separate games, so treat them as such.

I'll mix and match and tweak and tinker anything I want in my own games thank you very much.

 

[jonrog1]

D&D, d20 Modern and Spycraft are not to be mixed together. They use the same game engine, but they are not the same game; they are wholly separate games, so treat them as such.

"You fool! You mixed the Fixer with the Tough Hero!! EVACUATE THE FACILITY!"

There are a few ways you could give this a run, Universe, and I have great sympathy as I've been tinkering with my own home-brew Dark*Matter for three years now.

Three choices and a recommendation:

a.) Convert Spycraft classes to advanced classes.
Slide the hit dice down one category, only assign one (although I like the CORE CLASS ABILITY mechanic myself) power per level. I actually have a temp paper kicking around on my laptop for this, I'll see if I can hunt it up this weekend.

b.) Depower the Spycraft core classes in the above fashion, use them as your base classes. This still traps you in a very espionage heavy tone, which may work for you.

c.) Make the Spyclass special abilities talents and feats. This takes a bit more work, but I think may be the best way to go.

Beware: adding Spycraft to your D20Modern means pulpiness. One of the things most people ignore when using Spycraft is that the designers of that exceelent game intended for levels=tone. You want Tom Clancy, you play lower levels; James Bond start at 8th level or so. I never really loved that idea, but keep it in the back of your head as you look around the source books.

And the recommendation: Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook for Magic and powers. I love M&M and Blood & Vigilance, but they're full supers systems. For a quick drop-in that's not hard to wrap your head around, I cannot, CANNOT recommend that Green Ronin book enough. For low power psychics use the WILD TALENT feat, and for Magic users (if you go REAL pulpy) make them Psychics with more skill points but a lower skill rank cap. (more on something I hope to finish this month... if only I didn't have this burdensome day job ...)

And use WP/VP. Crucial.

Good luck.

 

[The_Universe]

Excellent advice.

It was your story hour that re-activated the desire that had slid into the back of my mind! I refer my players to it as the paragon of Dark*Matter-y one-shot goodness.

(Risks hijacking own thread) Anything on the TV/Film horizon from you, JonRog1?

 

[jonrog1]

Excellent advice.

It was your story hour that re-activated the desire that had slid into the back of my mind! I refer my players to it as the paragon of Dark*Matter-y one-shot goodness.

(Risks hijacking own thread) Anything on the TV/Film horizon from you, JonRog1?

Shooting the pilot to Warren Ellis' Global Frequency in July.