How noticable is a Paladin using "Detect Evil"

[Artoomis]

Spellcraft most certainly should work. It's just a question of DC, that's all.

I'd say either "DC 20 + spell level" or "DC 30 or higher." I think Tome and Blood covers how to detect spells that have no verbal or somatic compenent. Anyone have info on that?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't see how Spellcraft would work - there are no components.

When Concentrating, your face looks like a cross between a sharp headache and advanced calculus. Yes, people will notice this.

Incidentally, this makes it really difficult to use Charm or Suggestion

 

[The Souljourner]

I don't think there's any outward sign of concentration. It's a mental thing. I think if you were careful, you should be able to concentrate without giving too much of an outward sign. Sense motive DC20 could probably figure out that the guy was concentrating on something, but I don't think you need to screw up your face or anything.

Artoomis - yeah, I remember something like that, now that you mention it. It was like +5 DC for each component it's missing or something like that. I don't know though... with no components it seems like you would need to have detect magic on to be able to know he was doing anything.

Oh, and one way you can concentrate without anyone suspecting - just close your eyes and lean back... nothing says you need to have your eyes open for it to work (though after you've pinpointed evil guys, obviously you'll need to open your eyes to attach auras to people).

-The Souljourner

 

[dreaded_beast]

i've given up trying to detect if a person evil, since if it is an important NPC that the DM wants to keep secret, most likely that NPC will have some type of alignment masking magic, blah

 

[kramis]

mystery plots

This is only really a problem if you want to make a mystery plot type of campaign ... as mentioned previously like if the advisor was secretly evil. I ran a campaign like this but found ways around it, there are always ways around it, and if this is the only time it really matters then it's ok to nerf the ability for the fun of the campaign ... I mean, everyone's ability is nerfed at some point ... there's always something out there your super secret tech doesn't work around.

The two ways i've dealt with this in the past which worke well were the obvious alignment nondection magics.

The other was redefining evil somewhat. The characters were adventuring in a foreign land and met up with a powerful warlord king. He was actually a paladin (the group had one too), but his actions seemed "evil" to the party because of cultural differences. He was on a holy crusade and was going to take over or kill all the "barbarians" in the area he was invading. According to his religion this was completely appropriate and thus he was lawful good. His advisor was secretly working against him and helping some actual evil outsiders, but his advisor wasn't truly evil either. He was generally a good man driven to revenge by the death of his daughter that he blames on the warlord and has sworn to find a way to defeat the warlord at all costs, even if it means enlisting the help of evil to do it. In his mind he is saving the land from a viscious tyrant, so wasn't truly evil either.

There were other groups who had their own agendas and weren't really evil either. All in all it was quite a fun adventure for everyone involved and the players had a hell of a time figuring out whose side they should be on and who they wanted to help. The Paladin didn't mind having his "detect evil" be useless in many of the situations since it added to the campaigns suspense and enjoyment for everyone.

 

[guido1999]

Just to throw more fuel on the fire here, take this into consideration: The paladin's detect evil ability is a spell-like ability that duplicates the functions of the detect evil spell. The detect evil spell has a verbal, somatic and divine focus components. Now, do you need to use components when using spell-like abilities? I don't know. Does someone know for sure, along with the references they used to determine whether or not components are needed for spell-like abilities?

 

[jasper]

OK Then can you couterspell spell like abilities?
supernatural abilities is expressly mention they can be not be counterspelled.
spell like abilities are subject to sr and dispel magic then should they be subject to counter spells?

 

[shilsen]

Just to throw more fuel on the fire here, take this into consideration: The paladin's detect evil ability is a spell-like ability that duplicates the functions of the detect evil spell. The detect evil spell has a verbal, somatic and divine focus components. Now, do you need to use components when using spell-like abilities? I don't know. Does someone know for sure, along with the references they used to determine whether or not components are needed for spell-like abilities?

Spell-like abilities have no components. IDHMBWM, but it's on the last page of the Combat chapter in the PHB, right-hand column, where Sp, Su and Ex abilities are described.

 

[guido1999]

Not too sure on this, but since you can use dispel magic to counterspell, and spell-like abilities are affected by dispel magic, than, by that rationale, you should be able to counterspell spell like abilities. Does that make sense? Or I could be way off.

Also, if spell-like abilities do not need components, then it would be almost impossible to use spellcraft to identify one being used. It would be very hard using any method of detection, save a detect magic spell, to determine when a paladin is using this ability.

A sense motive check DC 20 will give someone a hunch about something, but you usually have to be aware of the person you are trying to get a hunch on.

 

[shilsen]

A while back there was a great discussion of "evil vs. Evil". That is, an evil person is just evil. He's taken evil actions, he's got an evil viewpoint, but there's nothing inherently evil about him; he can be redeemed, after all. His aura might show a bit of evil to it, but it's not really his defining characteristic. Even if you figure out he's evil, it's not grounds to go all Smite-y on him.

On the other hand, a creature from the lower planes is Evil. Note the capital letter. There's an inherent taint, something they have to fight against very hard if they want to change. True redemption is impossible, because it's just part of their nature. ("Don't touch it! It's concentrated evil!") If a Paladin sees it, he kills it; there's no reason to hold back.

The two shouldn't be equated. A guy who robs houses and slits a few throats along the way isn't the same as a creature from the Abyss. It's annoying, in a way, and it also makes certain spells/abilities too powerful. Paladins Detect Evil at will? If this finds evil people, then it becomes really difficult to have your bad guy be the King's advisor or something.
Protection from Evil? How many enemies DON'T qualify as evil in a normal D&D campaign?

***HOUSE RULE ALERT***
So, a house rule some people liked is, have the anti-Evil spells (Detect Evil, Dispel Evil, Protection from Evil) or abilities (Smite Evil, the Sunblade's extra damage) only work against Evil, not evil. That is, they work against:
> Creatures with the Evil subtype (Outsiders from lower planes, most Undead, some Aberrations)
> Spells with the Evil descriptor (most Necromancy spells, for example), or those cast by a creature with the Evil subtype
> Certain items, usually those made by the above creatures or using the above spells.

To make some of the abilities more useful, you could modify them; for example, make Detect Evil detect Evil in rounds 1-3 as listed, and evil in rounds 4-6. Make Protection from Evil be half as effective against evil. Stuff like that.
Or, one suggestion someone had was to make someone performing an evil action actually register as Evil while the action was taking place. So, even if you're one of the good guys, if you go and mindlessly slaughter those Orcs you'll register on a Detect Evil spell for a little while, long before your alignment would actually change.

My point is that you don't need all these house rules if you just use the ability and alignment as written.

Since there is no distinction between an evil human and an evil fiend as far as Detect Evil (or any magical effect based on alignment), the paladin cannot use his Detect Evil ability as an automatic judge of someone's status. Is it just an evil merchant harmlessly enjoying a glass of ale at the tavern, or is it a disguised fiend scoping out its victims? The paladin doesn't know. All he knows is that he detects the person as evil.

Sure, in a "normal" campaign, lots of enemies detect as evil. And a lot of other people should do too. The fact that evil is ubiquitous keeps the paladin from using the ability for "sight and smite" purposes. It's when you add in house rules for evil vs. Evil and evil character vs. intent and similar stuff that the detect Evil ability actually becomes more potent, not less.

Paladins detecting evil every second of the day are not a problem at all, and definitely far less so than most people make it seem to be. IMNSHO, of course.