How old does he look?

[Water Bob]

I'm in a quandry, WB. I know that you aren't stupid, that you know the difference between "common laborer" (as opposed to skilled labor) and Commoner as a class.

Maybe I don't know the difference. In the Conan RPG, there are the main character classes, and there is the Commoner class. And, that's it. All characters fit into one of those classes (and multi-classing is very common).

Is it not so in D&D?

If you translated a common laborer to the Conan RPG game, he would be a Commoner classed character. He might also be a Thief or a Babarian or some other class, depending on what fits the character.

How would your common laborer translate into 3.5E D&D? Is it different?

So I'll simply ask again: Is there such a thing as and old ditch digger in your games? Someone with years behind them, but still relegated to basic unskilled labor?

Sure there is. And, he'd most likely be an NPC Commoner between level 1-10. He could also be a multi-class, as I explained above. Or, he could just be a different class, if the background fit.

For example, if the unskilled laborer was born in the wild countries, then the ditch digger that's lived among the civilized peoples for a dozen years, could be a Barbarian 1, or he could be a Barbarian 1 / Commoner 1.

It just depends on the character and his experiences.

Is there such a thing as a young craftsman? You know, someone who has worked hard, trained hard (i.e. challenged themselves in life and in their profession), and thus learned and excelled in their craft?

Yep, sounds like a Commoner classed character.

Are there young adventurers in your game world, people of level yet still in their 20s?

Sure. They are most likely level 1. But, if you read the OP, different ages are possible. The OP and the system are a rule of thumb for average, typical characters. It's intended as a base for the typical, and the GM can move up or down from that point as needed by his story or desires.

If not, then it's silly to work hard and take risks in pursuit of lofty goals. Just sit on your ass, safe at home, and greatness will come to you anyway purely by virtue of years.

That's all covered in the rules in the OP.

Here, I'll highlight it for you in blue:

Water Bob wrote: If my PCs befriend a NPC, leave that village, then return 5 years later, how much should I increase the level of the NPC that they befriended? Each category above also lists the average number of years the NPC will spend at that level. So, if the PC's friend was 1st level, then, chances are, he is 2nd level when the PCs return. If the NPC was 5th level, then the NPC is probably still going to be 5th level 5 years later. These years are considered "non-adventuring" years. If the NPC is an adventurer, or if the NPC lives in an area where he's likely to gain experience fast, then the GM should take this into account when considering the new level of the NPC.

Maybe this will help....

So, let's say that you have two twin brothers, Arsen and Raib, that happen to have the exact same character stats. Then, there's a cousin, Zeb, the son of a bread baker. All are citizens of Tarantia, the captial of Aquilonia, where King Conan sits on the throne.

All three characters are age 15.

Arsen and Raib join the Aquilonian Army. Arsen is stationed in Tarantia. Much of his time is spent as watchman, breaking up drunken brawls, chasing bandits across the country side, enforcing the King's tax laws, and the like.

Raib is sent to the Westermark. This is Aquilonia's wild eastern frontier province where the kingdom has expanded out towards the sea into Pict territory. The Picts are savage barbarians that like Aquilonia's expansionism not even a little, and the warlike savages constantly attack Aquilonian civilization, keeping it under a constant state of war to halt the expansion.

Zeb is apprenticed to his father in Tarantia and will take over the bread stall in the market once his father is too old to work.



Now...all three, at age 15, are 1st level characters. Arsen and Raib are classed as Soldier 1 (Aquilonian Soldiers). Zeb is a Commoner 1 (Aquilonian Baker).

Flash forward 10 years. All three characters are now 25 years old.

Zeb is a non-adventuring character, thus the flat rule of thumb in the OP will work for him. After ten years baking bread, Zeb is now a level 3 Commoner (Baker).

Arsen, who has had some adventuring, is pushed one level. The effect is that Arsen's experience fighting the local bandits has pushed him around 8 years ahead of the character who did not see any action. Arsen, at age 25, is a 4th level Soldier.

Raib, also with 10 years experience on the "front", has seen intense action, repeatedly, over the last decade. As GM, I might even think of giving this character a slight chance to be dead. But, if I needed him for story reasons, I'd see from the OP chart that, at age 25 with 10 years experience, the average Joe is 3rd level. Raib's experience is intense, so we'll raise him up two levels. So, at the family reunion in Tarantia, 10 years later, Raib is a 5th level Soldier.

Remember that since obtaining higher and higher level is a logarithmic event, awarding even one level mean awarding a ton of experience onto the character.

Does that make sense and answer your questions?

<EDIT>I'd like to amend this slightly. WB, I wasn't calling you stupid, and I'm sorry if it seemed as if I was. It just seemed as if you were intentionally misunderstanding the question.</EDIT>

You came across as a bit snarky, but no worries. I wasn't intentionally misunderstanding the question--and I'm not sure what you think I was misunderstanding.

I'm suspicious if the classes in D&D are different than in Conan. In the Conan RPG, if a common laborer type is not one of the main classes, then he is a Commoner class. There is no other choice.

Is it different in D&D? Is there the main classes, the Commoner class, and then....something else? Non-classed characters? What?

 

[Greenfield]

Okay, maybe one of us is missing something.

I ask about "characters of level", and you say, "He's level 1". Was I unclear about what I meant?

When I make the distinction between "common labor" as unskilled, and "Commoner" as the class, was I unclear about what I meant?

Character class is a meaningless distraction in this discussion, one that you seem to have added by intentionally reading "unskilled" as "Commoner class".

So, to be clear and explicit: I don't care what character class anyone is. When I say "common laborer" I mean someone do does unskilled work, work so common that anyone could do it, pretty much untrained.

Clear now? Forget classes, multi-class or otherwise. We're just talking about levels here, as related to age. Or, from my point of view, that levels aren't related to age in any game system that makes any sense.

If there can be an old ditch digger, (i.e. years of age but still unskilled), you suggest that he can be any level from one to ten. First level would blow your rule out of the water, since that character can't be both old and low level at the same time. Yet "unskilled" really requires the character no be leveled very much. Tenth? Unless the system doesn't award skill points with levels, that one is harder to do.

Over all you seem to be actively trying not to relate the examples I'm asking about to your base position: If there can be an old man who is still level 1, then you can't equate age to level.

If there can be a skilled craftsman with levels but of a young age, whether you call him a Commoner or a fry cook, then you can't equate age to levels.

If, on the other hand, you keep bringing in tangents, such as character class, you can obfuscate all day. If that's the plan, do it by yourself.

 

[Gray Lensman]

Hmmm... lets see,

Did construction from 16 till 21 (went to school and got a BA at same time)

Army from 22 to 35 (during which time I was a Scout, Green Beret and then Personnel Admin Spec)

Did Construction again from 36 to 49

and from 50 to 54 I AM A COMMON LABORER.

SO, what is my Character level???

While I don't neccesarily agree with the Conan RPG, I don't Disagree either.

If you are the type that wants to get that detailed about it fine, it is YOUR game. Personnaly I think that too much mechanics gets in the way of ROLE PLAYING.

And as an aside, is it just me or is it always the same people that get into long winded arguments over a game?

No what really works? See rule #1.

just my nickels worth.
?

 

[irdeggman]

I'm suspicious if the classes in D&D are different than in Conan. In the Conan RPG, if a common laborer type is not one of the main classes, then he is a Commoner class. There is no other choice.

Is it different in D&D? Is there the main classes, the Commoner class, and then....something else? Non-classed characters? What?

This appears to be yet another difference betwen D&D and the Conan game.

IN D&D there are character classes (those in the PHB) and NPC classes (those in the DMG) starting on pg 107 of the DMG.


The ones there are:

Adept
Aristocrat
Commoner
Expert
Warrior

NPC classes are by design "weaker" than PC classes.

You should read the section in the DMG about NPCs to get some perspective from where the rest of us are coming.

In D&D (per DMG pg 107)

"NPCs gain experience points the same way that PCs do. Not, being adventurers, however, their opportunities are more limited. Therefore, a commoner is likely to progress in levels very slowly. Most commoners never attain higher than 2nd or 3rd level in their whole lives."

So it is clear that in D&D age does not equate to experience and thus character levels.

And the list of fundamental differences between Conan and D&D seems to be growing.

 

[Water Bob]

Hmmm... lets see,

Did construction from 16 till 21 (went to school and got a BA at same time)

Army from 22 to 35 (during which time I was a Scout, Green Beret and then Personnel Admin Spec)

Did Construction again from 36 to 49

and from 50 to 54 I AM A COMMON LABORER.

SO, what is my Character level???

This will be a fun, interesting exercise...

First a few notes: It's not quite fair to give you a character level because we don't know the focus of the universe you are in. In D&D and Conan, obviously the focus is combat.

Since the US isn't invaded (I'm assuming you're in the US), your "universe" has a different focus. Focus affects level.

If we were playing a trading based RPG that features no combat, then the game would default to a business/trading focus. Your level would be different than if we are playing a combat focused game.

To present this in more standard RPG terms, lets assume we're playing a Modern d20 game with a combat focus. Let's take how you've described yourself above and make you (your character background) a person who flew to Afghanistan for business but found himself in a war zone, unable to get out or return home.

Now, we've got an RPG character.

So, let's dig in.







At age 54, starting from age 16, you've got 38 years of experience. You should be a 5th level character--possibly higher if the GM awards extra levels based on your military experience.

Let's dig in a little deeper.

Using the system presented in the OP, you're a multi-class character. Since this is a combat focused game, your military experience takes precedence when it corresponds with civilian experience. You've got 13 years in the Army. This makes you a base Soldier 3.




At age 54, with 22 years as a civilian, we'll make you a Civilian classed character, level 4. Civilian 4 is akin to Commoner 4 in the Conan RPG.

Since we're playing a combat focused game, your military background is important, too (because you're a character in a combat focussed game--this is your most important experience). You've got 13 years in the Army. Your base would be as a level 3 Soldier.

Now, as a Scout and Green Beret, you may have some intense combat experience, too. If so, that's important for your level in this game. If you were a garrison trooper and did nothing but train, then you'll stay Soldier 3. But, your GM may bump you up a level or two (or, really, to any level he wants/needs for his story) to account for that combat experience.

Let's assume that you have a ton of combat experience as a Green Beret Scout and the GM gives you two additional levels.

This makes you a Soldier 5.





Now, let's look at your other class: Civilian (which is akin to Commoner in D&D and Conan). You've got 22 years in the civilian jobs you specified. You'll have to spend your skill points and pick your feats accordingly. This makes you a 4th level Civilian.

So, now, we're looking at you be a Soldier 5 / Civilian 4.





By your age, you should be a 5th level character. Multiclassing always broadens experience, so you got a boost there, and your GM gave you two levels in Soldier. If you don't have all that combat experience, then you are a: Civilian 4 / Soldier 3.



Final tweaking: Let's say that you do have a ton of combat experience, and your GM rightly awards you the extra two levels in Soldier. I think that your background as a Common Laborer and Construction Worker does not give you a lot of experience important in this game--that is, combat.

So, let's pop you down two levels in Civilian and keep the two increases to Soldier.

I'd say, given the d20 Modern game we're playing, that the correct level for you is:

Soldier 5 / Civilian 2.

This makes you a 7th level character, which is about right for a person 54 years old.

Remember that the chart is a rule of thumb--an average--a starting point. The GM must make some educated adjustments if he has as much information as you outlined above about a character.

Also, don't forget that the game may have some optional aging rules. So, you might have to take down your stats a bit at age 54.

If you are the type that wants to get that detailed about it fine, it is YOUR game. Personnaly I think that too much mechanics gets in the way of ROLE PLAYING.

I designed it as a game and role playing aid.

For example, (in the Conan RPG), you walk into a town and end up talking to a merchant. Off the top of my head (I'm the GM), I describe a very old, tall, Khitian (Asian) wearing robes and sporting a white Fu-Manchu hobbles up to you. He can barely walk, taking half-steps and very old men sometimes do. He's got a long pipe that he sucks on, blowing smoke out the side of his mouth every time he speaks.

Now, this is all completely made up, on the spot. Roleplaying. And, as we get deeper into the encounter, I surprise you a bit by portraying this NPC as old, yet very, very crafty. The character allows his appearance to throw his buyers off, and he traps them or gets a better price during the bargaining.

Do I have to make up stats for this character?

Heck no.

But, let's say, for some reason, I do need stats for him: for a combat situation or to make some task throw.

I can easily look at my chart, in a split second, and say to myself, "OK, the dude is about 60, having had a hard life...I'll make him a 6th level Commoner Merchant. But, since he's so crafty, let's boost him up a level."

And, I'm done. I know I've got a 7th level Commoner on my hands.

If I need to know more, I can build the character with skill points maxed in Appraise, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Profession (Merchant). His Feats will boost those skills (Skill Focus comes to mind). And if I need stats, I'll throw 3d6 for each, arrange to taste, placing the highest three scores in CHR, INT, and WIS, leaving his low scores for his physical stats, showing how old and frail this guy is.

And....

Let's say this guy becomes a recurring NPC that the PCs visit every time they come to this town. A campaign takes the game to another part of the world for 15 years, then the PCs return to the town.

The character would then be 75 years old, or there abouts. I'd have to decide, first, if the character lived that long. I like the character, and so do the players, so, for story reasons, he lives!

Do I change his level?

I don't know. Let's look at the chart. The chart says he should still be level 7. So, as GM, I'll keep him at level 7, or I may, because the guy is so good at what he does, raise him to level 8, to account for the decade and a half since the players last saw him.




That's how I envision the chart being used in a game. If I describe an NPC in his early 20's, then I'm probably talking about a 2nd or 3rd level character.

If there is a Captain of the Guard the PCs encounter, and off the top of my head, I say he's got 30 years experience, then the character is probably a 4th or 5th level character.

If the PCs run into brigands, then they're most likely 1st and 2nd level NPCs with a 3rd level leader.

Those are all examples of how the chart can facilitate a game.

 

[Water Bob]

This appears to be yet another difference betwen D&D and the Conan game.

IN D&D there are character classes (those in the PHB) and NPC classes (those in the DMG) starting on pg 107 of the DMG.


The ones there are:

Adept
Aristocrat
Commoner
Expert
Warrior

Ah-ha. I was starting to suspect as such.

That's some of our communication error, right there. In the Conan RPG, there's only one class like that--the Commoner.

You set up the Commoner's feats and skills to get him to where you want him to be. A D&D RPG Warrior would be a Conan RPG Commoner with skills and feats boosting combat ability. A D&D Aristocrat would be a Conan Commoner with skills and feats devoted to interpersonal abilities. Etc.

NPC classes are by design "weaker" than PC classes.

Yes. The same in Conan. Commoners are typically illiterate (or spend two skill points to be literate). They do get racial perks and benefits, but throw stats using 3d6, arrange to taste (instead of 4d6, drop lowest, for PCs). Commoner level cap is 10 (PC level cap is 20).

Commoners can multi-class, but they use d4 hit die, have their own class skill list, get 3 + INT mod per level skill points, and are limited to one simple weapon proficiency unless a Feat is used. They do get Skill Focus as bonus feats at level 5 and 10.

So, yes, weaker than standard Conan character classes.

You should read the section in the DMG about NPCs to get some perspective from where the rest of us are coming.

Good idea. We definitley have different perspectives on this.

In D&D (per DMG pg 107)

"NPCs gain experience points the same way that PCs do. Not, being adventurers, however, their opportunities are more limited. Therefore, a commoner is likely to progress in levels very slowly. Most commoners never attain higher than 2nd or 3rd level in their whole lives."

That is actually in the OP, in a round-about way.

And, I think the same is true for the Conan RPG.

In the OP, I say the quote below, which jives with your DMG quote.

1st level characters are young and untried adventurers who have just completed basic training in their chosen professions. A 1st level Barbarian is a young, brave, hot-blooded, and unseasoned. A 1st level Pirate is a lowly deckswab, eager to make his fortune. A 1st level Noble ha barely come of age and is still not worthy to inherit the authority due him by his birthright.

4th level characters are more established and considered a cut above average men (this means that the "average" man is 3rd level or less--which is what we see above with the average Corsairs).

Right there, we're talking "average". Which means that about half of the NPCs the players encounter SHOULD be 4th level or less.

The section goes with the examples: A 4th level Nomad is one of the finest warriors within a warband. A 4th level Soldier has been on the front lines of a battlefield several times.

Therefore, if an NPC is not a "cut above average", then he's 3rd level or less--which is basically what your DMG quote is saying.

I think the confusion is in the chart. A 54 year old is no where near 2nd level on the chart. "Type" of experience is important, and the GM should always adjust for it.

In fact, one of the first things I say in the OP is this:

First off, almost all of the faceless bad guys are 1st to 3rd level. Belit's Black Corsairs (which are Black-African-type tribal sea pirates) are generally 2nd level, when encounter. There's a note under their description that says that there are some, of course, that are lower of higher level, but very few will be higher than 3rd level.

Moving on...

So it is clear that in D&D age does not equate to experience and thus character levels.

I still see that it does. One just has to understand the relationship and the exceptions.

Take a look at this quote from the OP:

What if you have an NPC that you've roleplayed but not set stats to? If you've got a Captain of the Guard, let's say, and you think he's been in service of the king for 30 years, then the guy is about 45 years old (starting at age 15). And 45 years of experience, looking at the chart above, equates to about level 5 or level 6. Or, you can look at the number of years the NPC has been at the profession and figure his level that way, too: 30 years equates to about level 5. Experience is usually a better measure of average level than the character's age. You might have a 45 year old barkeep (5th level Commoner or Expert, again, using the chart) who's also accumulated 6 years worth of experience as a Thief and 3 years of experience as a Fighter. This would give you, on average, a 45 year old multi-classed character: Commoner (Bar Keep) 5 / Thief 3 / Fighter 2.

Really, the NPCs can be anything the GM needs them to be. The system presented in the OP is just a rule of thumb--a starting point--an average.

The barkeep I give you in that example is an 11th level character--which makes him a pretty strong NPC (kinda the point I was making in the example). That same character could be a 5th level character: Commoner (Bar Keep) 3 / Thief 1 / Fighter 1. Or, he could be whatever the story needs.

And the list of fundamental differences between Conan and D&D seems to be growing.

I don't see fundamental differences in the level descriptions, but the Commoner class point is obvious.

 

[Water Bob]

So, to be clear and explicit: I don't care what character class anyone is. When I say "common laborer" I mean someone do does unskilled work, work so common that anyone could do it, pretty much untrained.

Clear now? Forget classes, multi-class or otherwise. We're just talking about levels here, as related to age.

We're also talking about applying your thoughts to the mechanics in the game, yes?

In the Conan RPG, every character has a class. An old grandma, a seamstress, a common laborer, a street urchin, a beggar--all of those would be considered characters of the Commoner class in the Conan RPG.

There are no characters without classes.

Are there characters without classes in the standard D&D 3.5 game?

I mean, even a character that has no specialized skills still has stats and hit points and, presumably, skill points and Feats. Thus, he has a class.

So, what you are saying, with respect to the game, is not computing.



I suppose someone could try to make a case for characters under the age of 15 to classless. There are no specific rules for this in the Conan RPG. I would still consider them 1st level Commoners, with maybe some penalties to hit points, skill points, feats and such.

If there can be an old ditch digger, (i.e. years of age but still unskilled), you suggest that he can be any level from one to ten.

Yes. He's most likely level 1 or 2, no matter his age (this is not to say that age doesn't have a correlation to level--it does). See my reply above to irdeggman.

First level would blow your rule out of the water, since that character can't be both old and low level at the same time.

You didn't read the OP fully. It looks like you're basing this on the chart only.

I suggest you read the OP, my response to irdeggman, and my response to Gray Lensman above.

Read those three--most of where you misunderstand the system and what I'm saying are explained there.

Then, we can talk further once we're both on the same page.

(Oh, and I didn't mean that as snarky--I just recognize that you haven't read or digested the OP and are arguing from false assumptions. I see that I've got some reading of my own, the DMG, as irdeggman suggested, pg. 107.)

 

[Greenfield]

At this point I'm pretty sure you're playing stupid. So, at this point I'm done.

 

[Loonook]

The D20 system deals fine with age; and class and level assumptions are the real downfall of your argument along with the fact that it is strictly based on humans. I hate the fact that an elf with three hundred years of experience may actually be lesser than a human at 35, but I accept it as par for the course or, when running a human-heavy game, make the Elves that much more spectacular.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Water Bob]

At this point I'm pretty sure you're playing stupid. So, at this point I'm done.

LOL. OK.

I was honest with you above, though.

The D20 system deals fine with age; and class and level assumptions are the real downfall of your argument along with the fact that it is strictly based on humans.

Remember, the level "assumptions" in the OP aren't assumptions. They're straight out of the Conan RPG Core Rulebook, 2E, pg. 11-12.

Yes, the OP is focused on the game that I play, the Conan RPG. Which is a human-centric gaming universe.

I hate the fact that an elf with three hundred years of experience may actually be lesser than a human at 35, but I accept it as par for the course or, when running a human-heavy game, make the Elves that much more spectacular.

Yeah, that can be a problem with the basic D&D game universe.

Luckily, I don't have to worry about such abnormalities with the Conan RPG.








RE: Experience, Age, and Character Level

Yes, there is a correlation beween all three.

By definition, a character's level is based on his experience. The more experience he has, the better he is, the more XP he's got, the higher level the character becomes.

And, it stands to reason that two characters, doing the same job, for different amounts of time, will result in the character who does it longer having more experience--thus having a higher level. So, age is loosely correlated to level.

I say "loosely" becuase even I can think of examples where the young guy is just better at a job than the old veteran. Still, it is generally true that the more experince one has, the longer he's done it, the older he is, the higher his character level.





I think what makes some of you on this thread think that there is no correlation between character level and age is the fact that most NPCs never reach 4th level. Most people in the game world are level 1-2, with their supervisors being level 3, no matter their age.

You just have to get your head around how fast these characters advance--which is very, very slooooly.

A good realworld example comes from my reply to Gray Lensman's post. I made the NPC as strong as I thought reasonable given that we were focused on that NPC in my reply.

But, let's take the opposite approach and make the character a faceless, random, quickly made up guard.

Remember, we're playing a d20 Modern game with an emphasis (like most RPGs) on combat. In this case, instead of making the character a 7th level featured NPC as I did in my replay (Soldier 5 / Civilian 2), lets envision the character as the quickie NPC guard that I speak of above.

In this case, all that really matters is the character's military background. And, let's say that the character did not spend a ton of time in combat situations. In fact, since he was a Personal Admin Specialist, let's say that of his 13 years in the Army, lets say that 3 years were spent training as a Green Beret/Scout and 10 years were spent as a Personal Admin Spec.

Now, we've got to remove those two bonus levels the GM gave him AND think of lowering the average rule of thumb of level 5 that the chart suggests. We remove these levels BECAUSE the character didn't gain a lot of extra experience.

Of the 13 years in the Army, only 3 years provide the experience we're looking for. That makes the character a Soldier 1. But, because he's got some specialized training and may have seen a small amount of combat, then we boost him up one level. Soldier 2.

We've decided that the civilian activities really means little in this RPG of war that we're playing, so we don't even make the character multi-classed.

Boom. All done.

The character is a 2nd level Soldier at age 54.






I think you guys are taking the OP too literally. Read my notes at the bottom of the OP. The OP is just a guideline on which your GM applies liberal amounts of Common Sense to determine the level of an NPC.

And, yes, from everything I've seen, the system work fine with standard D&D.