How powerful is Crimson Edge?

[fafhrd]

I've been out of the loop for awhile on 4e developments and am hoping you guys can help me get a handle on the power curve for class powers. Taking a look at the paladin smite article, we see that binding smite is labeled "Paladin 27". It occurs to me that in a 30 level system, this is likely tied to character level rather than some slower progression such as 3e wizard spell progression. Crimson edge on the other hand is "Rogue Attack 9" which, given the same advancement, makes it a relatively low level ability.

Has there been any information to indicate that the numbers for class powers are going to be assigned at variable rates by class(ex. rogues gain access to new abilities on odd levels whereas paladins gain them every level)? Alternately, have developers said anything to suggest that the numbering system for the paladin was still in the formative stages and likely has been reworked since that article? Any help is appreciated.

 

[outsider]

Has there been any information to indicate that the numbers for class powers are going to be assigned at variable rates by class(ex. rogues gain access to new abilities on odd levels whereas paladins gain them every level)?

I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that they'd do this. One of the big things in 4e is "equalizing" the wizard and the fighter(to a degree). Giving some classes more powers than others will just lead to the same problem all over again, and I can't think of a good reason for them to do it at all.

Blinding Smite seems to me to be a more powerful ability than Crimson Edge(if it wasn't for the differences in duration, I'd probably classify Blinding Smite as a FAR more powerful ability). However, Blinding Smite is just listed as "Paladin 27", and Crimson Edge is listed as "Rogue attack 9", so it seems probable that things have changed at least a little bit since the smite preview was released. My guess would be though that 27 and 9 probably are their level requirements.

 

[Sir Brennen]

One other thing to note when comparing powers - Crimson Edge is a per day power, Binding Smite is per encounter. Per day should be more powerful than per encounter, though 27th level is going to be more powerful than 9th level. Figuring out how these two factors interact is heading into slide rule territory.

Though, even then, it's hard to do a purely numeric comparison of "line of sight only to you" vs. "5 continuing damage per round + combat advantage (save negates)"

But just to reiterate the Smite article:

In binding smite you can see an example of how the effect of a smite goes up with level, while the numbers in their base form seem similar when not taking into account the accuracy and damage boosts that merely gaining levels (and having better weapons) affords. It just gets … well, better. Heck, it's epic, after all, so it has to be good, and you don't have to have 4th Edition books in front of you to realize line of effect denial is good. When you're fighting balor, ancient blue dragons, and sorrowsworn, it had better be good -- those critters don't fool around!

 

[Celebrim]

Crimson edge isn't enormously powerful compared to the at will abilities of a rogue, unless you combine it with some effect that requires you to do a successful attack on the target, for example, an envenomed blade.

At that point, it gets wonky. You can always damage the target regardless of the target's AC. That seems to imply that you always at least nick the target. But, does the fact that you damaged the target imply a successful attack? You missed, but you still did damage? Conversely, I damaged the target, and you are saying that I missed? But lets assuming the intuitive, "I did damage to the target, hense in some fashion I must have scored a palpable hit.", Crimson Edge lets you automatically deliver the effect of your choosing to the target without regards to AC or circumstantial modifiers. That's potentially quite powerful.

I'll be interested to see how long they remember that. So much of 3.X in its later years seemed to be things created without reference to how they might interact with other things they'd published. Hense, the ability to create PC's that could do billions of points of damage in a single round, and so forth.

 

[Sitara]

OTOH a crimson edge performed by a level 27 rogue ought ot be more powerful.

 

[Celebrim]

OTOH a crimson edge performed by a level 27 rogue ought ot be more powerful.

As I understand it, a level 27 rogue is not likely to use 'crimson edge' any longer. As best as I can tell, you have a limited number of per day and per encounter slots. The number of available slots won't increase very much, so mostly rather than getting more powers you'll be trading out existing powers for more powerful versions. So very likely a level 27 rogue will have chosen for his per day power something like 'Terribly Bloody Ginsu Strike' rather than a power he first qualified for at level 9.

 

[Sir Brennen]

OTOH a crimson edge performed by a level 27 rogue ought ot be more powerful.

I wouldn't even say OTOH - it's just something else that factors in to the comparison.

In this case, a 27th level rogue's damage output will increase due to better weapons and stat increases. But the Paladin's melee damage output will also go up. Crimson Edge, however, is 2[W], where the Binding Smite is just [W]. Right now we don't know if [W] represents just base weapon damage, wpn + Str damage, or wpn + other bonus + Str damage. Also, the ongoing damage for CE will be higher if the rogue has bumped up his Str. But again, how does that stack up against denying line of sight effects?

 

[fafhrd]

Interesting. It seems that the majority view is that we'll be seeing 20+ level rogue abilities. Looking over the paladin smites and the rogue attacks, there does seem to be a pattern that attacks fall on odd levels. If that's more than incidental, that allows the developers to deal with 15 power levels for attacks(ignoring the frequency axis; at will, encounter, day) rather than 30, which seems like a good idea. Still, the developers have bitten off a huge task. I find it hard to imagine that deft strike, even with its bump in efficacy at 21st level, is going to remain viable for higher level characters. Should we expect a relatively small number of additional at will powers?

 

[Celebrim]

Right now we don't know if [W] represents just base weapon damage, wpn + Str damage, or wpn + other bonus + Str damage. Also, the ongoing damage for CE will be higher if the rogue has bumped up his Str. But again, how does that stack up against denying line of sight effects?

I'm guessing that its wpn + other bonus, though it might possibly be just base weapon damage. The reason is that if it was wpn + strength, then some of the rogues abilities would give it the ability to add it's strength modifier twice.

 

[Voss]

Interesting. It seems that the majority view is that we'll be seeing 20+ level rogue abilities. Looking over the paladin smites and the rogue attacks, there does seem to be a pattern that attacks fall on odd levels. If that's more than incidental, that allows the developers to deal with 15 power levels for attacks(ignoring the frequency axis; at will, encounter, day) rather than 30, which seems like a good idea. Still, the developers have bitten off a huge task. I find it hard to imagine that deft strike, even with its bump in efficacy at 21st level, is going to remain viable for higher level characters. Should we expect a relatively small number of additional at will powers?

Unclear on some of that, but what I expect is a unified progression chart that looks something like:

Level    BAB     Defenses     At Will     Encounter    Daily    Utility
1         0         0            2          1            1       0
2         1         1            2          1            1       1
3         1         1            2          2            1       1
4         2         2            3          2            1       1
5         2         2            3          3            2       1

and so on...
tweak it however, its just a guess. Actually I think the number of per encounter abilities will probably be fairly low- if they aren't you'll never need to attack normally or use at will powers.