D&D 5E How Should 5E Magic Work?

[billd91]

In any event, the word "Day" should be purged from D&D terminology post effing haste.

I disagree. The recuperative effect of good night's sleep covers all sorts of resource pool refreshments like nothing else.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Proposition: Spells require spell points to be cast. At-wills cost 1 spell point, encounters cost 2 spell points, and and dailies cost 3 spell points.

Wizards gain spell points by spending actions charging up. Minor, move, and standard actions when spent gives the wizard 1 spell point each. This means a wizard can move and cast an at-will spell in one round. In order to cast a daily spell the wizard is required to charge up over several rounds. Spell points are carried over from one round to the next.

A minor action to charge up is the equvalent of a verbal component. A standard action is akin to a somatic component and a move action is the same as producing a material component. This is important as otherwise you have no idea of how the surroundings react to the wizard's actions.

Clerics get their spell points in a different manner. They get 5 spell points during a short rest.

Bards get 2 spell points if they spend a standard action playing music.

A ritual can require a lot of spell points to be performed, but several casters can chip in.

Spell points dissipate at a rate of 1 spell point per minute. (So after a fight the wizard wants to press on while the cleric wants to rest). The quality of the wizard governs how many spell points the wizard can hold at any given moment.

This way wizards are weak initially during an encounter but becomes increasingly dangerous. Clerics on the other hand can spend their allotment right away.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I want the perfect mix. I want wizards with atwill cantrips (maybe include magic missile and ray of frost like offensives) and then vancian daily for everything else. I then want to see Sorcerers with Encounter powers and daily mana like powers. I then want to see warlocks with LOTS of at wills, and a few encounter powers. I would love to see Clerics and invokers getting their own systems as well.

I really want to see a skill based psionics, one that is sooo diffrent it can never be confused with magic

 

[CleverNickName]

It looks like the "Vancian" option is the clear leader of the pack...which surprises me, honestly. I thought that "Powers" would be in the lead, since it is the newest. Ah well. Old habits die hard, I guess.

My personal favorite is Magic Points. We started using this system under the 3rd Edition rules, using the method outlined in Unearthed Arcana, and we love it.

But we do have a deep and abiding love for "at-will" casting, too, which we handle with item creation feats. (Want to cast magic missile or cure light wounds every round? Make a wand. Want the fighter to be able to heal himself every round as a standard action? Get some potions.) To this day, nobody has complained.

I imagine that as long as it remains possible to craft magic items in 5E (and I hope it does), at-will casting will be a non-issue.

 

[SlyDoubt]

You know, I agree with that, but I want "encounter" gone first.

And realistically, it won't be D&D unless you have the Vancian ideal of memorizing spells every day in there somewhere so neither of us is likely to be fully satisfied.

I am pretty confident it will be vancian with a twist. Like pathfinder did in a sense.

I'm thinking some kind of vancian system but with maybe some kind of difficulty of memorization determined by spell 'power'. this difficulty being represented by amount of slots the spell takes up. Certainly that is in a sense similar to the 3.X/PF model except that at higher levels the strength of that system is diminished when you have many spells of every level available.

so maybe any spell that takes up two or more slots can never be cast infinitely. but any 1 slot spells can. so they can make a variety of damage and utility spells at all levels at 1 slot and then save all the really game changing spells for maybe 3 slots. Maybe the difficulty a spell has represents how many times it can possibly be remembered. Maybe something like polymorph or teleport or scry can only be memorized once per day.

in general there are many many ways to marry the vancian system with a reusable powers sort of system. or at least a system where the mage always has cool spells for his level to do stuff with AND super ridiculous spells, he just has more limits on how often he can use them.

edit: maybe I just described power points. not sure. but i probably did. regardless I think all are actually quite close to each other enough that using some kind of tweaked vancian system is extremely viable as far as satisfying 4e style players and anyone who like power point systems.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, your definition of "Vancian" renders the defining feature of Vancian magic (the requirement to prepare spells) optional, so no surprise it gets a lot of support.

 

[CleverNickName]

Well, your definition of "Vancian" renders the defining feature of Vancian magic (the requirement to prepare spells) optional, so no surprise it gets a lot of support.

Hmm...maybe I should have said "spell slots" instead? That is really the point I was trying to get at. Do you want to get a certain number of spells per slot per day (Vancian), do you want to get a certain number of points to buy spells with (Magic Points), or would you like spells to be sorted by their frequency of use (Powers.) Spontaneous vs. Memorization both belong in the Vancian category, since they both deal with spell slots.

 

[Vascant]

The more I think about my'perfict world 'the more I think it would be the way to go-OR-Id ep myself if I could

And here would be the problem for me, why would I change from 3.5 (current edition I play) to 5e if the first thing I am doing is changing the magic system to something I want to see. I might as well stick with 3.5e and play with the idea of changing the magic system for a few of the classes like you suggested. Honestly I do like your idea mostly because it does give the classes a bit more uniqueness.

I do think this is the biggest problem 5e has, how to make people get off the current system they do enjoy and magic is a big part of it (This is a fantasy setting at its base)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No need to strictly limit ourselves to what has come before in terms of exact mechanics. There are a lot more options that jut those three.

I understand why Vancian spell-casting is so popular for D&D. To a certain a level, it is much easier to track than point-based systems, since you just need to remember which spells you have cast already that day. However, there are a few key problems with it that need to be addressed. While it is pretty easy to track at low levels, when you have only a few spells, if becomes significantly harder to track at higher levels when a Wizard can memorize upwards of four dozen spells from a list of hundreds of spells. There is also the problem that magic spells don't scale well: a level 3 spell starts out as a rare and powerful spell, but eventually becomes a relatively weak and common one.

I think a heavily modified Vancian system that addresses some of these issues would work great for D&D. For one, it would be nice to be able to scale magic spells better. What if you could prepare a level 1 spell like magic missile in a level 6 slot, and it be as strong as any other level 6 spell? 3E metamagic tried to achieve that, but was limited by its "one-size-fits-all" feat approach. What if spells had scalable parameters built into the spell description itself, based on spell level? Alternatively, we could change the spell slot system from a set of ever raising tiers of spells to a simpler Minor, Lesser, Greater (all three of which are prepared daily) scheme, where spells are inherently designed to scale with level better. In this system, a spell like Fireball would always be a Lesser spell, but would do more damage and have a bigger area of effect at higher level. New spells would still be unlocked as the Wizard goes up in level. That way, spells meant to be used less often won't eventually become readily available at higher levels, and the Wizard class complexity would remain reasonably manageable as character level grows.

How about a system where the difference in spell level/target level is the determinant factor? You could then memorize a spell at any level but it would have considerably lesser effects against significant targets. It could also then be either at-will or per-encounter when you memorize it at a level far enough below your maximum spell casting level. So you get basically the best of various systems there.

Another advantage is that spells become less incredibly overpowering against tougher opponents. This avoids some of the problems that 4e spells have with easy lockdown of powerful opponents (Sleep is actually one of the best daily spells for a high level lockdown caster to use for instance). Sleep could STILL be really awesome when memorized at a high level, mowing down slews of mooks or giving you a nice but not ridiculous effect against a big boss type monster if you put it in a high slot.

Another thing this could do is let you have each wizard only know a very few actual spells, but be able to decide between a bunch of different possible applications. Thus you don't have to manage a huge sized list. You can have 'Flight' and as a lower level effect it lets you levitate, then jump, then actually fly for a short distance, and eventually you can get all the way up to full strategic flight. Group the spells into schools and you can easily see how you could cap a specialist in non-specialized magic and let them be a bit more effective in their specialty.

The same sort of system would probably work pretty well for non-casters too, maybe with some variations. A fighter for instance could have the selections he makes fixed, but instead of being at-will/encounter/daily they are just free/low cost/high cost and he'll use points. That gives you more of a 'using innate capabilities' feel for that class (and you could do that with some casters too). A Monk might instead construct 'katas' where he can create pre-arranged linked sets of maneuvers that can be unlocked for bigger and bigger effects as he uses them in order (kind of riffing off the existing 4e full disciplines). Again, because these things can all be selected for use in different level slots a single basic 'power' can have a whole graded set of possible effects and you only need a small number of them to pick from.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Why no multiple choice. I want Powers + Vancian.

Wizard Magic
Wizards have to prepare spells. They need to carefully study them and memorize a complex structure to their head - so complex that the space in any wizard's brain - even the smartest and mightiest of them - cannot hold more than a very few. The spell preparation does not just include memorizing the spell, but also preparing and holding an arcane pattern in their mind.

Once so memorized, the arcane pattern stored inside the Wizard's mind allows him to create magical effects that are congruent to the pattern, or ultimately release the entire pattern, allowing him to create the most powerful magical effect possible with it (within his own limitations.)



Ritual Magic
There is an alternative to cast such spells:
Without this diligient preperation, the only way to invoke the power of these spells would be casting them from a scroll and gaining magical energy from expensive arcane ritual components. While this technique requires less of a spellcasting in his mind, the cost make this approach very prohibitive, and the time required does not allow using them on a moment's notice.
For example:

Examples for Wizard Spells
The Lesser Form of a spell can be invoked as long as the spell is prepared.

The Greater Form is more limited, the caster usually has to take a short rest to cast either the lesser or the greater form again.

The True Form can be only cast once per day, as it releases the majority of the pattern, and it requires an extended rest of the caster to eradicate the last traces - and he must do so even if he wants to prepare the spell again. Still the remains of the pattern can be sorted and brought into form, but this requires a short rest. If done so, the caster can use the Lesser and Greater Forms again, even though the True Form will remain unavailable to him.


Mordekai's Faithful Hound
This magical spell allows the caster to call a force construct shaped like a hound. It protects him and attacks its foe.

Lesser Form (At-Will, Standard Action; Force):
A translucent hound appears, immediately attacking the designated target.
Close Burst 3, 1 Enemy in Burst: Intelligence vs Reflex. Hit: 1d6+INT force damage and the target suffers a -2 penalty to its next attack roll. If it

Greater Form (Encounter, Immediate Interrupt; Force):
As your opponent attempts to strike your ally, a translucent hound appears, immediately attacking the designated target and dropping it to the ground.
Trigger: An enemy makes an attack against you or an ally.
Close Burst 5, Triggering Enemy in Burst: Intelligence vs Reflex. Hit: 1d6+INT force damage and the target is knocked prone. Effect: If the target stands up before the end of its turn, repeat the attack.

True Form (Daily, Standard Action; Force):
You conjure a translucent hound to your aid.
Effect: You conjure Mordekainen's Faithful Hound. The hound occupies its square. When you take a move action the hound can also move your speed. The hound cannot be attacked.
Sustain Minor: The hound persists and you gain use the attack of the Lesser Form once per round as a minor action.


Isaac's Magic Missiles
Isaac's Magic Missiles creates a force effect that unerringly strikes its intended targets.

Lesser Form(At-Will, Standard Action; Force):
You conjure a single missile that strikes your foe.
Ranged 20: Effect: 1d4+INT force damage.

Greater Form (Encounter, Standard Action; Force):
You conjure several missiles that strike your foes.
Ranged 20: Target: 1, 2 or 3 targets. Effect: 2d4+INT force damage. If you strike only 1 target, increase the damage to 4d4+INT.

True Form (Daily, Standard Action; Force):
You conjure a hail of magical missiles, striking out to all foes.
Area Burst 3 in 20: Target: All enemies in burst. Effect: 5d4+INT force damage.

Variant True Form (Magic Missile Battery) (Daily, Minor Action; Force)
Only very few spellcasters know this secret variant of the spell.
Effect: You can use the Lesser Form of this spell up to twice per round as a minor action.


Fireball
A simple, yet highly effective spell, that has become almost a symbol for war wizardry.

Lesser Form (At-Will, Standard Action; Fire):
You conjure a tiny bead of fire and hurl it to cause a small, fiery explosion.
Area Burst 1 in 10; Target: All creatures in burst.
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex. Hit: 1d6+INT fire damage.

Greater Form (Encounter, Standard Action; Fire):
You release a bead of fire that causes a destructive explosion.
Area Burst 2 in 20: Target: All creatures in burst.
Attack: intelligence vs Reflex: Hit: 2d6+INT fire damage. Miss: Half damage.

True Form (Daily, Standard Action; Fire):
You charge an intense bead of fire, that causes a giant, destructive explosion.
Area Burst 3 in 20: Target: All creatures in burst.
Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex. Hit: 5d6+INT fire damage and 5 ongoing fire damage (save ends). Miss: Half damage.


Notes:
The spells are basically "balanced" as they probably would or could be in 4E. The rule saying that you cannot use a greater or true form of the spell after you've used the greater form, and not use the Lesser and Greater Form after you#ve used makes the Wizard magic "more complicated" - you have to decide early on in any given engagement whether you want to use the Daily version of the spell or not - and you may find yourself entirely out of magical spells after you've cast all of your True Forms. To compensate, the True Forms of the spell are stronger, though, than "normal" 4E dailies would be.