How Should the Paladin Suffer?

[Trainz]

Well, now that the little girl is a self-sentient undead, she will persue a very different life then what was ahead of her indeed. First thing, she kills dad.

Then, she starts traveling, meeting evil necromancer cults, who start to teach her because she's such a cool undead. While liking and cherishing that newfound power, she is still revolted by her undead state, and remembers that THE PALADIN told her he would always be there for her, and she thinks it's his fault she's now undead.

She grows even more powerful, killing the evil cult of necromancer, swallowing their dark life essences, and starts to create her own cult. Evil followers learn about her, and start worshipping her. She becomes one kick ass young "dark queen", soon with thousands of followers, ravaging the country, taking city after city, creating some evil dark empire, on the throne of which she now sits. All the while, still having resentment about the paladin.

Still here ? Good.

Then the party learns about some new evil empire in some faraway land, and for some reason, their adventures takes them there. A few weeks later, they're walking the streets of that evil empire's capital, and they get arrested by some good-detecting necro-guards with long pointy teeth and glowing red eyes under the command of the dark emperess. They are brought before her, naked and in chains, when the kneeling paladin lifts his head and recognises the girl on the throne. He reaches to the sky with his hands and screams:

"NOOOOOOOOO !"




... or you could do what the others suggested and give the Paladin a break.

 

[Joe Shmoe]

I'm just curious, has anyone here read the series of unfourtunate events? It is a little bit childish, but the book is solid and the plot works out. IMHO the paladin should not be punished too harshly, maybe if you gave him a clue what was happening, punishment would be more justifiable(sp?) It's hard enough to play a paladin already, and if you have a party of say 4, the others might feel ignored.

BTW, it said that the corpse is under the control of the dad

 

[BigAlzBub]

I'm not in favour of beating the Paladin over the head whenever they make a reasonable mistake, however I think Trainz is on somewhat of the right track (no pun intended, well maybe a little ) I think the plan Trainz outlined would be okay, if you were playing 1st or 2nd ed D&D or if you have large amounts of downtime between adventures, however myself, I would always keep the daughter innocent and blameless, I would engineer a situation where the Father becomes the shadowy BBEG, and after a protracted series of adventures they find who he is and track him down and kill him, only to find the daughter a zombie, have her beg the paladin for final death.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Isn't it enough that the player has to imagine a six-year old girl that he is friends with has been turned into a zombie by her father? That is just ruthless as a DM. If I were playing that Paladin, I would be pissed at you as a DM. Then I would hunt down the father and kill him. My next quest would be to get the little girl restored to life. You are an evil DM Goobermunch.

 

[Sejs]

Why does evil always get to be proactive, and good always reactive?

Because being proactive is aggressive. And being aggressive makes people uncomfortable. And we all know that things that make people uncomfortable are bad. And bad things are evil.

"Evil will always triumph, because Good is dumb."

 

[Goobermunch]

I'm not really an evil DM, I'm an evil Keeper. And yes, the tone of my game is very dark and gritty. My players are in the process of discovering that underneath the bright shiny world they live in, where orcs are evil, there are ancienct beings that can only be described as Evil. It's a game where there is a great deal of moral ambiguity, and where actions have consequences.

It's a game my players signed on for.

This event is one of the defining moments of the campaign. It's the party's first taste of Evil. It's also the moment when they realize that the young girl is more than just a 6 year old. Which is why the entire party will be getting disturbing dreams.

Between when the party left and when they will return, the girl's father volutarily became undead. He extracted his daughter's soul (all it's innocence and purity intact) and bound it into her undead body. She's not undead, she's still good. Her body, however is just like any other zombie (only smaller).

I don't want to torture the paladin beyond the limits of his transgression, but this was a situation where he made a promise which he then twice re-affirmed. In my book, when you act with honor, you keep your promises.

I don't want to strip him of all his abilities. I don't think that's justified by what he knew and what he did. But he, and the whole party, undertook to care for the child, even in their absence.

However, in retrospect, I think I've been convinced that a mechanical punishment is not warranted. I think the guilt and a few nights of interrupted sleep are probably sufficient.

--G

BTW: Trainz: If events in my campaign world weren't already moving in the current direction, I could build a campaign around that idea. It's brilliant.

The_Gneech: "Call of Cthulhu" isn't that much a stretch in this campaign.

 

[Abraxas]

She's not undead, she's still good. Her body, however is just like any other zombie (only smaller).

Does she mind that she's a zombie? If not (similar to the child vampire in the "Interview with a Vampire") then she hasn't come to harm and the promise isn't broken.

I don't want to torture the paladin beyond the limits of his transgression, but this was a situation where he made a promise which he then twice re-affirmed. In my book, when you act with honor, you keep your promises.

I don't want to strip him of all his abilities. I don't think that's justified by what he knew and what he did. But he, and the whole party, undertook to care for the child, even in their absence.

Don't expect any more promises, without a lengthy list of conditions, then from your players. The only way for the paladin (and the rest of the group) to honor this promise was to give up adventuring and stay with the girl. Were you also going to send this paladin bad dreams/revoke his abilities if/when she gets ill, stubs her toe, cuts her finger, gets bit by a cat, etc etc?

Not trying to jump all over you, but I think you may be in for some trouble. It seems that you are setting things up in such a way that the players will never want to get into any kind of agreement because any small thing that could be seen as a violation of that agreement will come back to haunt them.

Good Luck.

 

[Goobermunch]

Does she mind that she's a zombie? If not (similar to the child vampire in the "Interview with a Vampire") then she hasn't come to harm and the promise isn't broken.

Oh, she minds. She has no control over the body, it does whatever her dad tells it to do. The only thing she can do is talk. Of course, that irritated her dad about a week before the party finds here, so she's been in a broom closet since then.

Don't expect any more promises, without a lengthy list of conditions, then from your players. The only way for the paladin (and the rest of the group) to honor this promise was to give up adventuring and stay with the girl. Were you also going to send this paladin bad dreams/revoke his abilities if/when she gets ill, stubs her toe, cuts her finger, gets bit by a cat, etc etc?

Not trying to jump all over you, but I think you may be in for some trouble. It seems that you are setting things up in such a way that the players will never want to get into any kind of agreement because any small thing that could be seen as a violation of that agreement will come back to haunt them.

Good Luck.

Ergo, no punishment for the paladin.

Thanks--

--G

 

[adembroski3]

Wow... I can't believe the leiniency. This isn't a fighter who made an idle promise. Why have paladins lost their meaning in D&D circles?

The Paladin has sworn... given his word of honor... to defend that child. By leaving the child, be it with the father or any other, he has already broken his oath regardless of what happens to the child later. He didn't swear to bring the child to someone else to defend her, he swore to defend her.

A paladin's honor should not be set aside so cheaply as to say that he should not do anything. He should be struck with some curse... perhaps so much as losing his paladin abilities... until he has seen the girl into the afterlife and punished the father, as part of an Atonement.

All that said: it is possible that you interpret Paladins differently in your campaign, and that's all well and good, but I personally believe that Paladins should be held to a VERY high standard. Not based on game balence, but based on what the class is supposed to represent. If someone doesn't wanna deal with the in-game responsibility, then that person should not choose to take the Paladin class.

 

[takyris]

Adembroski: Why?

Other people have already made the point I'm gonna try to make better than I will make it, but is it not acceptible to believe that "Bringing child back to her father" falls under the heading of "Keeping her safe"?

Let's play this the other way. Paladin finds little girl in the woods. Paladin says, "I swear to protect you and keep you safe." Then he takes her back home. The father comes out of his house, very grateful. The paladin says, "I just wanted you to see her one more time before I take her away forever, because, y'know, I swore to protect her. She has to stay with me now."

The father, concerned that his daughter is being kidnapped by a lawful good knight-priest, calls for the guards. The paladin says, "Hey, they might accidentally hit you in the scuffle. Rather than surrender and risk having her be returned to her father, I'll kill all the guards."

Or the other perspective. Paladin finds child lost in woods and says, "I'll protect you, I promise." Then takes her back home. Father comes out. Paladin says, "Hey, nice to see you again. Where am I going to sleep? For you see, I've promised to protect her, which means that I have to stay here for the rest of her life. I'll be at her first spring dance, I'll be lurking beside her in the market while she makes purchases, and I'll be just outside the door on her wedding night. Because all I really know is adventuring, I won't be bringing in any money, and also, I'll kind of stink, since according to the severity of the GM in this world, I won't be allowed to go find some bushes or an outhouse or anything because that might invalidate my promise."

Please weigh these options against "Return girl to father who is not great but who is fundamentally and by all standards we know her legal guardian." Maybe the paladin could've roleplayed it better (or maybe he did, and it isn't written here), making a very polite threat against the irresponsible father -- "I release her into your care, but my promise still binds me, and I shall return from time to time to verify that she is being taken care of properly and responsibly... and there shall be severe consequences if I am not satisfied as to her safety and happiness." Maybe the paladin's player thought that was implicit.

Dreams are good. Using the promise as a roleplaying hook is good. But penalizing the player for something that is not by any stretch a violation of the promise, because you want to twist it to something it never was, is not going to encourage paladins in your campaign.