How Should the Paladin Suffer?

[milotha]

Don't do anything to punish the paladin or strip him of his abilities. If you really want to tortue the guy and if he is role-playing his paladin correctly, then let him find out what happened to the girl. The guilt enough should tear him apart. Let him role-play out dealing with this moral quandry. Hitting him with a stick isn't going to do anything positive. In fact, it will just result in a player that watches his everyword, says less, does less, and feels slighted.

 

[Torm]

I guess y'all are right, in part - being struck mute would be a little extreme. I stand by the blind part, though, as being acceptable in the right circumstance. There ARE rules for blind-fighting, after all, and I never said he would have to resolve the situation by direct combat - he might have to humble himself in the service of someone who would take care of his responsibility on his behalf.

After reading more about exactly what happened, I don't believe these are the right circumstances, but you gotta admit, struck blind by a god makes for some interesting roleplay possibilities.....

 

[kamosa]

I guess y'all are right, in part - being struck mute would be a little extreme. I stand by the blind part, though, as being acceptable in the right circumstance. There ARE rules for blind-fighting, after all, and I never said he would have to resolve the situation by direct combat - he might have to humble himself in the service of someone who would take care of his responsibility on his behalf.

After reading more about exactly what happened, I don't believe these are the right circumstances, but you gotta admit, struck blind by a god makes for some interesting roleplay possibilities.....

Like what? If you can't see the cliff, how quickly can you stumble over to it and throw yourself over off so you can roll up a new character? Maybe I'm a weird player, but I don't play D&D so I can suffer through something like being blind or mute. I play it to have a hero that goes on the adventure and does, you know, hero stuff. Not, a hero that sits around and invents ancient brail.

There is a line between having to struggle to succeed in a game and suffering through a game. Blinding someone or making them mute crosses that line. It's supposed to be fun for the player, not a mind numbingly boring suffer fest.

 

[eris404]

I wouldn't punish him at all. I would, however, start sending him hints that something is seriously wrong, and his attention is required immediately. If he fails to act once the hints have gotten strong enough, then punish him.

AMEN! It doesn't seem to me that the situation is his fault (unless he knew about her father beforehand?), but it is something he should probably act on now, but only if he understands what has happened.

 

[BSF]

OK, the question is "How Should the Paladin Suffer".

I opened the thread, read the first post and my response is: That isn't the DM's decision. That is the player's decision.

If the player is role-playing, the paladin will suffer plenty when he finds out. The DM does not dictate how the character is played. That is what NPC's are for. However, if the player does not RP any self-induced suffering, then there may be need to encourage it. Or, you might be expecting more pathos from a player that really doesn't want to give it to the game.

As for what kind of penalties the paladin might suffer, I am a little troubled on this. It isn't clear that the paladin did anything wrong, really. There are a few things that people have touched on here in the thread.

First of all, a paladin does not need to have a deity. A paladin can have a deity, but the paladin can derive powers from nothing more than a noble and pure purpose. This is where I usually go off on my assertion that the Code of Conduct can be different for each paladin. Indeed, a unique Code of Conduct is what I tend to expect in my games. This is not to say that the Code of Conduct won't share many similarities between paladins, but their emphasis need not be identical. In this case, the paladin might put a strong emphasis on Hope, Love and Family, while another paladin might put the emphasis on Righteousness and Justice. Both paladins might believe in all five of those things, but the emphasis will be different and in some situations the two paladins could disagree on the best course, because of their individual emphasis on what is best.

Second of all, Detect Evil is a spell-like ability, but that does not make it very subtle. In fact, spell-like abilities can draw attacks of opportunity. They can ine interrupted and require a fair amount of concentration. They may also have a visible or audible affect associated with them. In many polite societies, it would be reasonable to expect a Detect Evil to be considered rude. As well, being evil does not give a paladin carte blanche to smite on sight. Unless of course, you want to run that sort of campaign.

Third of all, there is a big difference between a Vow and a promise. You need to very carefully think through your enforcement as a DM. If a paladin Vows to serve and protect a King, what will happen if the King sends the paladin off on a quest? Or to lead an army? Or to act as an Ambassador? If an assassin kills the king while the paladin is away, will you penalize the paladin? After all, he should have stayed by the King's side, he did Vow to protect the King, right? Of course, he also Vowed to server the King. Is this an interesting quandry? Or, were you setting the paladin up for failure? Is there any "punishment" that needs to be administered? Or, should you let the PC agonize over it themselves? This can be an opportunity for RP, but where should the DM step in an apply external pressure by denying paladin powers.

You want to think all of this through carefully. You will be establishing a tone for the game, and how you expect characters to behave. Depending on your players, and why they enjoy playing the game, you might find their reaction to be unexpected.

In this particular scenario, you need to understand what tone you want to set.

Is a promise to a little girl a solemn vow? Certainly, it might be to the little girl. It may, or may not, be to the paladin. What about to reasonable observation? What about to the gods, or to the universal concept of Good that the paladin derives power from?

If you hold this up as an example of a solemn vow, are you actually telling your players that they shouldn't make any promises to NPC's because the players don't know how it will be twisted back on them? Will you establish an adversarial stance with your players?

Or, does this vow only have power because of the belief of the little girl? If that is the case, is it enough that she somehow haunts the paladin, and perhaps the whole party? Is it necessary to move toward stripping powers from the paladin? Do you trust your players to RP all of this in an interesting way that tells a grand story without resorting to a mechanical penalty? Or, are your players the sort that might not appreciate any sort of emotional struggle and can only relate to mechanical penalties?

There is a lot of potential to turn this into a wonderfully moving story that has repurcussions throughout the campaign. A lot of that will depend on how your players deal with it, because there is also a lot of potential for the players to be resentful of the "paladin trap".

If it were my campaign, I would probably have the trust and perceived betrayal of the little girl be the motive force for dreams. I would give the PC's enough information to suspect that something bad ended up happening. I would let the PC's figure out the mystery and then tell me what kind of "suffering and punishment" they feel. I would let them tell me how to resolve the situation to their satisfaction. Some of my players would feel very little pathos for the situation. Some of my players would treat it as a wonderful opportunity to agonize over past mistakes and investigate new characterizations. Both types of players enjoy my game for different reasons. I'm OK with that, though I would love to see all of my players go for deep, immersive characterization.

Find the balance for your group where you can have pathos and fun.

 

[coyote6]

I vote (e) None, for many of the reasons previously given.

Now, if the character finds out, and just shrugs it off nonchalantly, then maybe his lack of compassion might warrant some kind of not too terribly subtle hint.

Some other ideas on hinting to the paladin that Something Is Wrong:

Does the paladin have a mount? If he does, perhaps at the first opportunity it should wander off in the general direction of Lost Little Girl and Evil Daddy (not, mind you, a "you wake up and find your horse gone without a trace" kind of deal; more "your horse is tugging at the reins, drifting towards the east -- again!" thing).

If you absolutely want to have some kind of negative effect on the paladin, I recommend something mild -- perhaps it takes him 2 or 3 hours of prayer to get his spells in the morning (assuming he can cast spells).

Perhaps the paladin can have waking dreams -- he keeps catching glimpses of the girl (or her favorite toy, piece of clothing, etc.) out of the corner of his eye, in crowds, vanishing around corners, wandering through the brush on the far side of the river.

If all else fails, the next time the paladin detects evil, have him sense an aura; he can't locate it, though. All he can tell is the direction (toward Daddy Evil Care), and that it seems just out of range.

 

[silentspace]

Second of all, Detect Evil is a spell-like ability, but that does not make it very subtle. In fact, spell-like abilities can draw attacks of opportunity. They can ine interrupted and require a fair amount of concentration. They may also have a visible or audible affect associated with them. In many polite societies, it would be reasonable to expect a Detect Evil to be considered rude.

Spell-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, material, or focus components. Yes, they provoke AoOs in the same way the casting silent, stilled spells provoke AoOs, unless you cast defensively. But if you're not in combat, it should be possible to pause for a few seconds, perhaps before speaking or while the other person is speaking. Or perhaps when the paladin is waiting waiting for the other person to walk towards him. What about if a wizard took the silent spell and still spell feats? Would you allow them to use them outside of combat, or would you say that other people could tell, and it would be considered rude?

People cannot tell when a spell-like ability is being used. Even a 20th level wizard with maxed spellcraft can't. You provoke an AoO because you're in combat! And who's dumb enough to use a spell-like ability in melee unless they do it defensively anyway?

 

[Sarellion]

Nothing.
The party was expected to return the child or they would have broken the law.
The father was distant and a little strange but how could the players know that there was more than meets the eye? There are mediocre parents everywhere. Will the group save all this children.
And I don´t see how the party coulkd have possibly suspected that the father was a necromancer. The way you described it he was a hardworking citizen or was it mentioned that he was the town´s necromancer.

 

[Umbran]

People cannot tell when a spell-like ability is being used.

They may not be able to tell when the ability is first used, but remember that the spell in full requires three rounds of concentration. In many instances, standing there staring into space of 18 seconds could be telling. It's a longer time than you might think...

 

[silentspace]

What's the use? If your players lack imagination so much that they stand one foot away from the farmer and stare him straight in the eye for three rounds, then they deserve everything they get. I must be lucky not to play with players like that.